ISTM there are 3 types of possible scenes:

1. Exciting scenes which are pivotal and move the action forward.
2. Less exciting scenes which move the action forward but less obviously, and are more supporting than pivotal - for instance, working up to a type 1 scene.
3. Padding scenes which do not move the action forward in any way.

We all know type 3 should not be there. However, are type 2 just as permissable as type 1?

I know it's hard for any of you to answer that precisely since I'm not giving examples, but I can't really upload several 1500 word scenes to discuss, hence the attempt to describe/discuss.

The reason I've been worrying about this is that I'm part way through writing my first novel and haven't so far written it in order. That was deliberate, but I'm slightly regretting it and probably wouldn't do it again. I began by writing the most exciting and pivotal scenes, and now I'm having to go back and write some "scene-setting" scenes.

A writing friend has read one of these less full-on scenes (a type 2) and felt it was a bit lacklustre. However, I feel he may be reacting to the fact that it's quite short and less intense than other scenes he's read of mine, and thus on its own is not so interesting, but sandwiched between more interesting scenes it may play a perfectly legitimate role. (Or of course he may have been reacting to the fact that I didn't write it very well - but for the purposes of this discussion let's assume that wasn't the case.)

There must surely be an ebb and flow of high drama in a novel, because it really wouldn't work for every single scene to be intense?

Many thanks for any comments.

Deb

Yes, I'm sure giving him a scene out of context will have affected his appreciation of it. Scenes in a novel all work together, and you're right, it can't all be at mega-intense pitch throughout. You need light and shade, fast currents and slower ones, and they reflect off each other.

I wonder, looking at your list, about this 'padding' business and whether that's what it is. You need sometimes to establish a mood or a scenery, or reiterate aspects of some relationship, and I don't think that's quite the same as your 2 but it's not padding either.

Thanks Lammi. That's really helpful and much appreciated.

Your comments about establishing mood, scenery (and character too?) are incredibly reassuring, because I feel this needs to be done and yet I'm so scared of deviating from "moving the action forward".

In view of your comments I think I'll carry on as I was doing, and when I've written the entire first draft I can stand back and should be able to see if there are scenes which shouldn't be there, or which can be truncated/merged.

Deb

Much as you would if you'd written the thing in order.

It's reassuring to hear of someone else who writes scenes out of sequence!

You do too? Interesting!

Do you always write your novels out of order, or just occasionally, and what motivates you to do so? Is it that you want to get down on paper the defining moments of the novel which inspire you, and then build the rest around it? Or a different reason?

Is it a practise you feel has worked well for you?

Deb

I've done it more as I've gone on. The ending of Queen Mum was written while I was about half-way through because it just popped into my head and I knew I had to get it on paper. But with my latest novel, from the word go I was getting flashes of scenes from all the way through and having to jot them down.

So while I work, probably like you, I have papers of varying sizes with little snippets scribbled on them, to be slotted in as I come to the appropriate point.

That's why I could never write without having planned my novels first: this 'flash-forward' effect wouldn't happen if I wasn't secure about the direction in which I was going.

That's very interesting, Lammi, since that's exactly how I've been working. Nice to know that, in the right hands, that method can be successful!

My scribbled snippets have been pretty disorganised - I know where they go in the novel, but I'm not always sure where on my dining room table each snippet is lurking! However, I'm currently re-organising my notes and processes, so I hope that problem will soon be in the past.

Deb

I think, too, the process of rounding up my scraps of paper and putting them in order every so often helps me re-focus.

Thanks a lot, Lammi! Knowing that the way I'm doing things isn't bizarre is really encouraging!

Deb

Sometimes you need to give your reader - and characters - a breather. So a type 2 scene is perfectly acceptable. Even a 'seemingly' type 3 scene is permissable if parts of it (clues, red-herrings) are revisited later in the book.
These gap fillers can be excrutiatingly boring to write and to read and it is probably best to rely on your reader's perception of the passages and ruthlessly chop them out if necessary.

Thanks Naomi - I like your comments about the breather. Useful way of looking at it.

However, I think Lammi had a good point that a scene which may seem dull out of context (if you give it to a reader alone) may work as part of the whole novel, so unless that reader has seen what wraps around it perhaps we should treat their verdict with caution. That doesn't mean ignore them, but bear in mind that it may not work as a standalone scene, but in the novel it doesn't have to.

Deb

These gap fillers can be excruciatingly boring to write and to read

They shouldn’t! They might not be the most exciting passages, but they should never bore. In most – if not all – novels there is a need for quieter, more reflective, slow-moving passages, BUT they should all contribute to the story. They should, in their different way, move the story along or bring some insight to a character or a plotline. If you're not sure whether a scene is necessary, here’s the acid test: take it out. If you don’t lose anything from the story, you didn’t need it in the first place.

I tend to write out of sequence. I work out the high points and get them written, then I gradually fill in the gaps. If a scene comes into my head while I'm working on a different section, I quickly write it out and stick it at the end of the doc until I find the right place for it. If I don’t find the right place, it goes into the doggy bag.

Dee

I'd absolutely second Dee.

And I think that it is very risky giving people scenes out of context, because there's so much that's important that they can't comment on (it's a facet of the reasons why it's so hard to workshop novels in any context, online or otherwise). The comment can easily throw you off-balance.

Emma

very risky giving people scenes out of context

I'm coming to that conclusion, yes.

I find showing people (esp experienced people) my writing invaluable as a way of picking up the basic errors I'm making - competence issues - but not so valuable for determining whether my novel is working overall. I'm going through a phase of wanting to rely on my own judgement for this...

Deb

That's to be strongly encouraged, imo.