Deb - you asked me about the 'change' point in a scene, and for me a chapter is like a big, composite scene - it has an arc from beginning to end.

Yes, ever since we talked about that in the other thread I've been thinking about it, and now intend to think in chapters rather than merely in short scenes.

Before we had that conversation I thought of chapters as pretty arbitrary apart from dividing up the book into chunks, and I was going to use them to change viewpoint. I still will change vp there, but I can see now that they mean a lot more than that!

I've only been on WW for about 2 months and have already learned so much - I'm truly amazed! That's largely down to generous and knowledgeable people like you, Emma, and loads of others, who share their knowledge so willingly. Thank you!

Deb

Again, thanks for all the insights here.

I'm off on holiday, and shall think and do diagrams in my sleep!

Happy writing

vanessa

This thread reminds me of something I heard on the R4 Open Book programme a while back. It was when Martin Amis' professorship at Manchester had just been announced and they, jokingly I think, had a number of creative writing teachers come on and give him tips. All good fun. One teacher said that the thing he must make sure his students DIDN'T do was to plan their novels and work out storylines. In her view the whole point of writing was to take risks and not have it planned out, or something... Maybe I'm misrepresenting her, but it did surprise me. She had very strong views against plotted novels and therefore discouraged her students from doing any plotting and presumably took a dim view of any who did, or wanted to. It struck me at the time that this was a bit unfair. And that any orthodoxy in teaching creativity is dangerous. I think it depends on the writer and the book they want to write.

I bloody hate it when people start laying down the law about how to write. You explore and discover what works for you, and there's so much joy to be had in the exploration.

I agree, Roger. I think it's important for a writer to find their own way of doing things and that might mean picking and choosing from various methods until you find the one that works best for you.

I'm not sure if I'm an intuitive writer - I think all writers have to be to some extent. I have heard the distinction made between 'blank-pagers' and 'outliners' but I suppose there's a whole spectrum between the two.

I think I treat my characters the way I treat my children. The ultimate aim is for them to become independant, complete adults and I let them make their own decisions up to a certain level but there are times when they just have to tow the line because I have a better idea of the bigger game-plan than they do. (I'm joking, but only half. )

And that any orthodoxy in teaching creativity is dangerous. I think it depends on the writer and the book they want to write.

Hear! Hear!

I don't see why teachers have to be so dogmatic about it: why can't they say 'these are some of the possibilities, and now let me explain some of the pros and cons of each of them.' It's always easier to explain why your way of doing things works, but that doesn't mean other ways won't work for others, and you only need a quick dip into the Paris Review Interviews to discover just how wide the range of possibilities is.

I think that can be a good role for a Masters: getting people to try different ways in a safe setting, where a) you're allowed to make mistakes and b) it's not a permanent decision like how you're going to write this novel.

Emma

I think one of the writing 'rules' I do obey though is getting to know your characters first - sometimes even as the first draft develops. That's what gives me the main plot.

Nessie

I have found a very good package called insiration which runs on Windows for mind maps, spider diagrams and allows you to convert a roughly jotted down list of notes into a map at the tough of a botton. Its ~ £75 for a single user.

I use it to help support my son who is dyslexic. I think its ace - for the money!

Forbes

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Thats INSPIRATION by the way!! new fingers please!