On this novel length point - in my humble opinion, I think that as writers we shouldn't strive towards a set length of words - if you can say what you intend in 80,000 - why pad it out to 100,000? There are many famous short novels...an anxious fattening up process I think can ruin a work...say more in less words is the motto I think

Hello there

I haven't read the whole thread on this subject, however, I would like to share my experience with everyone because I think it may help some of you. I was writing a novel for three years and going nowhere, constantly going back to the start and rewriting!! It drove me nuts! Thank Oxfam for this book, 'The Psychology of Writing' by Ronald T Kellogg. I picked it up second hand and didn't read it for over a year. Shame, cus when I did, the sun came out of the clouds! In the strategies chapter, it describes three modes of writing, rough draft strategy, free writing and the polished draft approach. The polished draft approach (unfortunately mine and seemingly a lot of others here) is described as extremely hard because the writer is attempting to polish the text, develop characters, narrative structure, word choice, spelling, sentence structure and other complex concerns . It's enough to make your brain cells give up and go pop! It is near on impossible to acheive a final draft and most successful writers, eventually realise what they are doing and opt for the rough draft strategy instead. This is how I work now, I bang my way to the end, resist the temptation to look back, make notes when I want to change or add things and only rewrite when I've got a finished first draft. I've found this approach had totally freed me up. Because I'm not worrying constantly about the quality of my prose, the work falls out of my head safe in the knowledge I can go back and tidy up later. My output has rocketed and so hopefully has the quality of my work.

regards

Sounds good to me. As I'm just about to start a new project I think I'll have a go at this approach. Sounds fun too.

Colin M

why pad it out to 100,000

Traveller, please don’t mis-quote me. I have never suggested that anyone should ‘pad out’ their work.

And also, there are forces at work other than the mind of the writer. As soon as you enter the commercial world of publishing there may be external pressures to increase your MS from 80,000 to 110,000 words.

What do you do then? Say - No thanks. This is an 80,000 word novel and that's how it will stay. I'll find another agent/publisher/.... ?

Another 30,000 words or no publishing deal. That's a toughy!!!

(Just a thought) Jumbo

<Added>

ps Emma, that sounds an interesting book. I'd be very grateful if you could let me have the full details( ISBN number, etc). Thanks a lot. John.

Sounds like an excellent book to me too so I've just ordered a used copy from Amazon.

John, if you search on 'ronald kellogg' you'll get a choice of new or used.

cheers
Dee,

Hello John

The isbn no is: 0-19-512908-3

This book is a real gem. The only resource I've come across which looks at the nuts and bolts of writing based on academic research from a psychological perspective. It's been very useful in helping me understand the mechanics of my mind, why sometimes I work well, and sometimes not . It covers all sorts of things I'd never considered, such as extrinsic/intrinsic motivation, flow state, etc. Although its a hard chew buy this book!!

Mika,

I agree totally! This is the method I have always used when writing any project. Write first, no holds barred, edit later when you have the full cloth, so to speak.

I think people underestimate their ability to hold a story together in their head, and this leads to the insecurity of continual polishing and editing as they write. You can so easily get trapped in a loop of revision. The creative impulse should always take precedence, I believe, as editing and polishing, while still creative, have a more logical (even mathematical) flavour to them.

My method of writing is I handwrite everything (except short works) and then when I type it up on my computer, I'm effectively rewriting from the tapestry I now have. I can see what I've got, beginning, middle and end. THEN I edit and polish, chapter by chapter, until I'm satisfied.

I wouldnt say this method was for everyone,as at the end of the day, we are all different, but I couldnt imagine working on a book any other way. I call it the three phase pyschic generator!

James x

Mika and Dee

Thanks for the info on the book - sorry about not getting back sooner, too many balls in the air at the moment!

I'll have a look for it.

Ronald T Kellog, eh! Is it a serial?

Thanks again

John

Jumbo and Dee - I respectfully disagree with your comments. Dee - I wasn't attempting to misquote you - I was just using an example - wasn't even thinking about what you said actually but was trying to relay my own experiences!

Jumbo I hear what you're saying about the prospect of a deal versus none and it's good to be flexible - but I don't think we ought to ever sacrifice the integrity of the writer for the sake of a deal - I don't know, that's just the way I think, maybe there are many writers out there who write for the purpose of making money and are very successful at it..I always think that as writers we ought to be true to ourselves rather than be affected by commercial concerns..perhaps I'm being idealistic but that's the way it is with me.

Shuab

I have absolutely no difficulty with your point of view - I might even add, I have some admiration for it. However, it doesn't work for me. But then it does, as you say, come down to what your intention is.

Mine - personally - is to try and get published; and I honestly believe that, in order to achieve that, I may have to be flexible - given the world we live in!

But, I hope that whatever you have in mind for your writing works for you. And if it works for other people as well, I guess that's a bonus.

Good luck.

John