Simon

I agree with you! I also feel I have to get every sentence just right.

But then I don't think that I'm taking the "polishing" too far, I'm just making the writing as good as I can get it before putting it down and saying 'I think that's it.'

How would we have felt if Constable had left the rough edges in his paintings, and displayed them half-finished - with something that looked ike a cow, but could have been a horse, standing in a field that could've been a lake?

Best wishes

Jumbo

Regarding word count or length of novel...Dee, 100,000 words is what publishers are looking for - minimum??

Maybe the fact that my novel doesn't reach that mark is another added factor to it being refused by Agents?? No publisher would touch it? Is that possible? Adding 30,000 words to a novel is quite a task when you think you've said it all in 70,000.

I mean it may very well be that they think it's a rubbish story but what if it is about word count? Length...does size matter in the publishing world?

Nahed

Hmm, tricky one this. I agree with what Dee is saying about publishing costs. After all, as a first time writer, the publisher is taking a bit of a gamble about your success, so it's only natural that they'd want to hedge their bets.

My novel was originally 160,000 words. It was the first time I'd attempted to write a book in years, and I really knew nothing about the market, word counts etc. The whole thing has been an incredible journey for me. Part of that journey led me here to WW where I know I've benefited tremendously (thanks guys)

I've now edited the book to 140,000 words, and still think this can be edited to at least 130,000 before it would lose its flavour. Like others, I've given it a rest for now to concentrate on other projects. It's being considered by two publishers and an agent in the US, and that feels sufficient at the moment.

I read somewhere that very few writers get their first attempt published. As other people have said here, your skill increases and improves with each sentance you write.

In the end, I like to think a good story is a good story, and the length is going to be pretty superfluous if an agent or publisher is moved by the book enough. It's a question of risk, but also a question of belief. And that is on both the side of the writer and whoever is going to publish you.

From my limited experience, there does still appear to be a market for novels under the 100,000 word mark.

I think the industry uses a standard approximation of 300 words a page (I'm probably about to be shot down in flames, here), so for 100,000 words that's roughly 330 pages.

I get the impression there are lots of books about with less than 300 pages!

jumbo

I got this info about length from two published authors. One is with Orion, the other with Piatkus.

Nahed, I would imagine that if anyone had rejected your work because of its length, they would have said so. It would be easy enough for them to suggest you add more to it. Not so easy for you to do though!

As Waxy says, if the story is good enough it will find a publisher. Incidentally, I’ve also heard that you can tell how borderline a manuscript was with a publisher by the size of the print. If they had doubts about its commercial viability they use a smaller font to save on the number of pages. Personally, I’d give a free magnifying glass with every copy if it meant getting my novel published.

Dee.


<Added>

I wonder if Katie is around to comment on length? She would know, if anyone does.

x

Dee,

You’ve mentioned something that worries me. The first draught of my book came in at 175,000. I think I could slash and burn it down to 150,000. Do you think I really need to try and get it under 120,000?

Grinder


<Added>

draught? he he :)

As for editing, after some coaching from Dee, and a dose of ‘On Writing’ by Stephen King I’m working on an editing checklist. The hope is that once I’m satisfied a chapter meets my own criteria then I’ve at least had a go at checking everything.
I’ll let you know how I get on.

Grinder

EEK!!!

Beginning to wish I hadn’t mentioned it. Now I’ve got both you and Wordy worried from both ends of the scale. (tsk! Repetition of ‘both’)

As I said, this is what I’ve heard from two writers, but it might only be their publishers. Or it might only be their genre (hadn't thought of that before…) They’re both crime writers.

Grinder, only you can decide what to do with your own work but I would say that, if you’ve already done 175,000 words, you have two ways to go. Either prune it down or expand it into two or three volumes. I’ve read your work. It’s definitely in a genre which leans towards trilogies. Had you thought of that?

Dee.

Dee,

It’s definitely in a genre which leans towards trilogies.

Unfortunately it is already part one of a trilogy (I’m 50,000 words into the second book!).
With your help I did manage to cut 40% out of my first chapter, so cutting the whole book by that much would do the trick!

So I'm not too worried...

Grinder

The only problem with promoting a trilogy to agents and publishers, as a first time, untried writer, is that effectively you're trying to flog three books instead of one. Trilogies generally work because the first book was a hit (much like movies) and there is an audience demand for more. Of course, this isn't always the case, but generally...

I'm not trying to be a killjoy here, just a realist. Someone suggested to me I try to cut my book in half in order to avoid the gruesome, endless pain of editing, but I just can't see my novel as having a sequel of any kind.

The editing process is one I've since come to enjoy. I'm not snip happy, but as Doris Lessing said in her intro to the AWY 03(Artists and Writers yearbook 2003, one must learn a ruthlessness towards one dear art. I would certainly agree. I've cut nearly 30,000 words out of my novel since the first draft was finished and all thats occured is a total enhancement of the story. Agents have responded better. Friends have been more willing to pick it up. The general message to new writers seems to be 'save the epics til later'.

Above all of this, of course, is my shining belief that you should always write what is in your head and heart. We can become so dictated to by the market 'rules' that we can easily lose the flavour and the spirit of what we are doing. I see editing as a refinement process, and not as a ruination of what is there. Basically, I've learnt how damn verbose I can be, and as a serious writer, that's been a tough, but ultimately rewarding , lesson.




<Added>

*towards one's dear art.

James,

I’ve written the first book as a stand-alone entity. The main story is complete, but the secondary threads continue, and the main thread continues in a modified form.
What I’m saying is, the first book will stand on its own, but is part of a bigger picture if the opportunity arises.

Then again, I’m fully prepared for the fact that this might not be the first thing I actually get published.

Agent – great 90,000 word novel, have you done anything else?
Me – Well I just happen to have this 500,000 word trilogy, lying around gathering dust.
Agent – Gulp
Me - He he.

Grinder

Grinder,
I'm in a similar-ish position as you but with less words. My book is for children so should, in theory, be around 40,000 words. It's currently 80,000 but I'm working on it! If you find an editing checklist that works, pass it on! I'm on edit 5 and it really is tightening up but I just can't seem to cut enough out of it. I need to be more ruthless but I'm not sure where!
I also working on a follow up although the first book stands alone. I was told that agents/publishers aren't necessarily looking for series now but more towards developing writers. A problem I'm finding is how much background to put into book 2 without being too repetetive. Do I need to lay out the characters bit by bit again or presume (perhaps rather arrogantly) that the reader already knows them from the first book. Nothing bores me more when reading a series when the writer drags up every little detail that I already know.
Sue

The only problem with promoting a trilogy to agents and publishers, as a first time, untried writer, is that effectively you're trying to flog three books instead of one.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Most publishers are just not interested in a new writer with only one novel in them. They want to see long-term commitment so being able to offer them a trilogy would be a bonus. Sales on the second and third volumes would be predictable, based on sales of the first.

always write what is in your head and heart.

Damned right, Waxy. Absolutely damned right. There can be nothing worse for a writer than feeling forced unwillingly down an unchosen path.

So, Grinder, go for it. Stop worrying about word count and just do it. But don’t confuse writing a trilogy with being too verbose! Every word should count, no matter how long the tale.

Sue, your point about the repetitive detail is one of the reasons, I think, why trilogies are so successful in certain genres. The author can assume that readers are au fait with the details and readers can assume the minimum of repetition.
Don't know if that would work in children' fiction.

Dee.

Dee, a good and fair point. I hadn't thought of it that way at all!

<Added>

Grinder- so hopefully more like:

You: I have more
Agent: slurp!

Sue,
When I get my editing checklist sorted out, I have a rough draft now, that I hope to put to the test later.
If it works out for me, then I’ll post it to see what others think, hell I’ll post it even if it doesn’t work, Something might come of it.
At the moment it’s a checklist, as a reminder to me for what to look for…

Dee,
Thanks for the kick in the pants, “less worrying more writing.”

Waxy,

You: I have more Agent: slurp!

As usual, thanks to all...

Grinder