Hello

Does anyone know what that means? *g* Thanks.

Jen
x

Just guessing, given that the vocative is the case for addressing someone (another example of trying to label English grammar with not-entirely-suitable Latin terms)

"I said, Joe, that you should go and tidy your room!"

"Jo, go and tidy your room."

Emma

I understand now!

Thanks Emma.

Jen
x

<Added>

or is it Thanks, Emma?

Oh now I'm confusing myself!

Jen
x

Thanks, Emma.

Cheers for that!

One last, promise [correct use of comma there??!!]

Is it:

She stopped and called out, "You forgot something".

or

She stopped and called out. "You forgot something."

Thanks one and all!

Jen
x

The first. You can even leave out "she called" and still use the comma to indicate the speech belongs to her, ie.

She stopped, "You forgot something".

(but that full stop should be inside the quotes - I guess that's a typo, as it's inside the quotes on the other example.)

Colin M

Thanks Colin-M!

Jen
x

Colin, I disagree with you about this.

She stopped

is a sentence in its own right so you can't have a comma before the speech. It has to be

She stopped. 'You forgot something.'

The fact that the speech belongs to the 'she' is indicated by its being on the same line.

Naomi

It's the same as:

She looked up, 'Are you leaving?'

perfectly fine. It tells the reader that the speech is immediate and indicates the source, rather than the more staggered:

She stopped. She said, 'You forgot something.'

or,

She stopped.
'You forgot something.'

Well I 'm not going to get into a long argument about it but I've been teaching this stuff for years and I'm sure you're wrong. 'She said'(and similar indicators of speech) are not treated in the same way as indicators of actions. There is direct continuity between 'She said' and the speech that follows it, and the although, having a subject and a verb, 'she said' is technically a sentence, it doesn't make sense on its own. 'She stopped' is a sentence for the same reason (subject and verb) and it does make sense on its own. In addition there is no syntactical continuity (which means the comma won't do) or sense continuity between 'she stopped' and the speech. Your example 'She looked up' etc is the same. 'She looked up' is a sentence in its own right. It is not puncutated in the same way as 'She said'. You might get away with a colon but I doubt a copy editor would let it stand.

Sorry Colin

Naomi



<Added>

I meant your example 'She looked up.' It has to be

She looked up. 'Are you leaving?'

I'm going to stop now. I can feel obsessiveness coming on!!

Naomi

I have to say that I agree with Naomi, but I don't think it's a hanging matter.

Emma

I wonder if it's a thing of fashion. After all, english is a living language and the rules change all of the time, ie "That's Jones' ball" vs "That's Jones's ball"

I picked up this tip from my agent/editor as a technique for hightening the tempo of a piece.

example:

Gareth nudged me again and said, ‘Should we leg it?’

was edited to:

Gareth nudged me again, ‘Should we leg it?’

For me, the second version is punchier, and for reading outloud, it cuts out superflous "said"s - which I use like kids use hundreds and thousands on homemade cakes!

I'm no expert though. I guess you should just do what feels right and call it style.

Colin

I do agree the second version is punchier - I'm sure anyone would. The only real issue is whether it should be a comma or a full stop, and tho' I don't have Naomi's technical knowledge, a full stop looks right to me.

But yes, these things do change.

Emma

Oddly enough, in most of the examples that have been edited that way, I would have swayed more towards a semi colon if I had written them with the "said", as the first text introduces the next, thereby linking them. To use a comma would have felt too "weak", but if it is a modern trend, then I guess this is where the term for the thread came from: "use commas to mark off the vocative" - as opposed to full stops or colons.

Where did the quote come from?

But hang on, the vocative's nothing to do with comma or full stop before dialogue that we've been talking about at this end of the thread. It's about addressing someone by name, when the name - the vocative - should be marked off with commas. If you see what I mean, Colin, in this not very good example.

Going back to Naomi's example, I'm sure it's right that speech-tags can't stand on their own. You can't just have "She said." as a sentence on its own: the speech that follows is part of the same sentence. Other subject+verb phrases are sentences on their own, and it's wrong to link a grammatically self-contained sentence to the next one with a mere comma, so you don't, even if the next one is speech.

She said, I'm hungry. She whispered gently, 'I'm hungry.'

but

She looked up. 'I'm hungry.' She lowered her eyes. 'I'm hungry.'

I'm absolutely sure

She lowered her eyes, 'I'm hungry.' is wrong

Emma