I have a question about what is considered standard grammar usage in a first person view novel. I have bought several books on writing and posted the question to friends, but found no answer.

The question is, not what is correct, but what are the present publishing standard accepted rules concerning grammar in a first person view novel?

For example, when I first stared writing my novel, I tried to make my character’s dialogue grammar semi correct when speaking, but I found they were much more interesting when I tossed grammar out the window. This seems correct. When we talk (or post on forums), we don’t use correct grammar. Why should characters? Then, I started looking at my main character’s exposition. (When she is talking to the reader, or thinking aloud.) This also sounded more interesting when I did not use correct grammar.

So then, being a trio writer, I asked myself, does anything in my novel need to be grammar correct? I contacted a friend who writes and asked her. We both agreed that punctuation needs to be correct. And we agreed that tense needs to be consistent through the novel. And we agreed that Past tense seems to be the industry standard for a first person view novel. At least, that is what most readers expect when reading a novel. Beyond these two things, we could not think of anything else concerning grammar rules that should be applied in a first person view novel.

I am not even convinced that a novel needs to stay in Past tense voice. Sometimes a sentence written in Present tense, seems more immediate. It seems to accent the sentence. Of course, perhaps it will shock a reader out of the story if I write this way, and should be avoided even if I do like the effect.

So, I return to my question, what are the present publishing standard accepted ‘rules’ concerning grammar usage in a first person view novel? What will the reader expect in terms of grammar beyond correct punctuation and tense? What will shock the reader out of the story?

Thank you
Azel

If you try to be too experimental with grammar and punctuation you may risk putting your reader off - you may render your text unreadable, or it's possible an agent or ed will assume the rules have gone out of the window because you didn't know them in the first place.

The distinction you make between the grammatical constructions your characters use when they speak, and the ones you use to shape the rest of the narrative, is a good one. When we open our mouths we don't always use Standard English, so yes, it's acceptable when you're writing dialogue to break the formal rules. Characters may miss out words, or use slang or dialect, or solecisms like "I was sat waiting for her", "Give us a kiss", "he were thrilled to see us" etc.

Generally a writer keeps things tidier in the rest of the narrative, though - even if you're using first person, so in effect it's a character speaking to you. If you do choose to break a grammatical rule here then use it consistently and with conviction.

There have been novels where the whole thing's written in non-standard English and where it works it's wonderfully fresh. But it's quite a risky approach.

If you want to remain true to the voice of the character, then you have to go against grammatical rules. The best example I can think of is a sentence I originally put down as "Gareth and I..." but realised that, being from the first person view point of a twelve year old boy, the correct voice was "Me and Gareth". Unless of course, my twelve year old happened to be a prince of the realm, but he, like, wasn't, yeah?

Note: Not sure if regionalised grammatical variations work. "Them is" is my local dialect (Mackem) for "they are" - ie, "Are yous goin' to the party? Cos them is, over there."

I think once you tread to deeply into grammatical variations you run the risk of making it difficult for the reader - but for some writers (David Mitchell), I think that's their main aim.

Colin M

I had not planned on ‘treading to deeply into grammatical variations.’ My sentences can get awkward at times as I change my direction of thought in mid sentence. I was more interested in making a ‘check list’ for a local English teacher I will hire to find grammar problems in my copy. I understand she needs to check punctuation and tense, but beyond that I do not know what to tell her to look for. I had a bad experience with another person I used for this who tired to rewrite my sentences to make them grammar correct. This time I thought I better give my grammar checker a list, to restrict what she changes.

Returning to the subject of Tense. Are most first person POV novels written in the Past tense? Is it wrong to throw in a occasional Present tense sentence, or will the change in tense jolt the reader out of the story?

I am very grateful for everyone’s help. I can’t seem to find anyone locally who even understands what I’m talking about in terms of grammar in a novel being correct or incorrect by present publishing standards.

Thank you
Azel

As Colin says, voice tends to dictate grammar so you should probably go with your instinct most of the time (or check the odd detail by asking on here). There's less of a 'creative margin' with punctuation, though, and if you're at all shaky in this area then yes, I'd get someone to check that aspect of your writing out for you. All writers need copy editors because everyone makes mistakes.


Are most first person POV novels written in the Past tense?

- Yes, but present tense is becoming more and more popular. I remember reading Helen Dunmore's 'Zennor in Darkness' back in 1996 and being really surprised that it was all in the present tense. Nowadays it feels like every other novel I pick up uses it. I think you have to go with what feels right for your story, Azel. Within that you should be consistent, unless you're changing for a specific effect, in which case signal it clearly by starting a new parapraph, preparing your reader for a flashback, or something similar. Again, having someone else read through your work is useful because they'll be able to tell you whether the device works or not.

I'd agree with the others: grammar and (to a lesser extent) punctuation need to depend on voice, but, the more non-standard grammar, or punctuation, or spelling are, the more readers will either find it heavy going, or give up all together. Azel, to be honest, I think you'd need to choose your 'local English teacher' quite carefully, as you've already found. You might be better off looking to one of the literary consultancies who specifically offer copy-editing, or find a freelance copy-editor (I think WAAYB lists them). That way you know you'll be working with someone who understands the demands of fiction, and will give you a realistic price for the job.

You won't always agree, but that's part of the process. A good copy-editor will query as many things as she actually crosses out or changes, and you can always just rub out what you don't agree with. (What do you mean, she's working on screen? That's the last thing you want: you want hard copy with her pencil markings, so what's her and what's you jumps out at you).

More broadly, the best training in grammar and punctuation is to read lots of good late 19th-mid-20th century writing, sometimes analysing what they're doing, and sometimes just tuning in and absorbing it into your own instincts.

Emma

<Added>

And Colin's spot-on about past and present tense. Beyond the basics of which you use and being consistent in it, if you're not confident of handling the more obscure corners, you'd probably be wise to get someone to check it over:

Just to amuse myself, while writing the above I was trying to construct a really awkward sentence, where starting from past or present, every verb has to be different... or does it?

"If I had not been here, I would not have believed that you could have been planning to go there when you had finished mowing the lawn."

"If I were not here I would not have believed that you could be planning to go there when you have finished mowing the lawn."

but more colloquially (and incorrectly)

"If I was not here...

"If I was not here...

haha - reminds me of kids in a car going on holiday, "Are we here yet"

"Yes. We're always here. It's there that takes all the time to get to."

There was a nice moment in The Wind in The Willows last night, when Ratty and Mole were trudging home through the snow, and a little Moley voice said, 'Are we nearly there...'

Emma

I have to admit that I am terrified of grammar. That’s probably a bad thing for a trio writer. I had a high school English teacher (that’s school for students ages 14 through 18 here in the USA) who made my life hell because of my bad grammar. The more she tortured me in front of the class, the bigger my grammar mental block became. Her name was Miss Miller, and thank God she has passed on to her reward. I would never have the courage to write any book if she were still alive. She might accidently read it! I still break into a sweat every time I open a grammar book. I have five on the shelf right now by different authors, but I’m still afraid to open them. Scary things; verbs; adverbs; subjects; nouns; past tense; present tense; future tense; conjunctions; and other horrible things in those books. I think I’ll just pay a local English teacher to make the corrections in my copy.

(And Miss Miller, if your reading this from the great beyond . . . I know there are grammar mistakes in this post, but there’s nothing you can do to me now. HA HA HA.)

Azel

You don't have to know the labels for every part of speech to be able to use language properly. It can help when you're discussing details of a text, but I wouldn't say it's vital to know anything more than a small core of terms.

It may help to read John Banville's novels. Most of his books I have read seem to be in first the person and I think he is a master of this view. As for style, first person view can sometimes get away with more dashes for parenthetical statements. Used sparingly they are a delight - as Banville uses them - but I have to keep checking I don't use them too frequently in my novel because - as you can see by this example - too many are not a good idea. Some say you shouldn't use them at all but I think for forst person they add that extra colour.

I absolutely agree with Lammi. It's useful to know that a small collection of words in a coherent order, beginning with a capital letter and ending with a full stop is called a sentence, but other than that, you really don't need to know the names of anything, except, perhaps, a verb. But even then you don't really need to know.

I sometimes teach English to Johnny Foreigners (though I don't call them that) and as a result I know all about First and Second Conditionals, passives and actives and all this other stuff, which is interesting when you get behind it, but as labels, they're all fairly dry and boring, and not what language is all about at all.

Um... what's a trio writer?

I googled it, and only found this..

BenQ has announced the BenQ BW1000 Trio Writer, their next generation optical writer that incorporates three types of lasers to support multiple media formats.

That should have been spelled tyro.

Sorry

Azel

I've written a novel entirely in first person, present tense.
And, as far as I'm aware I have not broken any rules or laws. Although I no longer live in Britain as a result of Tony Blair, I would not put any such pointless, limiting legislation past him and his cronies.

Neverthless, I chose this method for my 2nd novel for good reason. But it brings its own set of problems- not least of which are: geography, persepective, plot repetition for the sake of absent characters, the passage of time, and many more little difficulties.

Having said that, I've enjoyed it immensely. The tense felt liberating, genuine and, as you say, immediate. But the plot is (meant to be) pacey. I don't think it's for everyone: "I watched a slug move across the surface of a chess board...etc. etc."
This might be very fine for a literary wannabe as a theme, or yet another tedious allusion but it'd be even more screamingly awful in FPPT.

By the way, I prefer trio writer. It has an air of sanctity about it whereas tyro only sounds like a Goodyear retread.

Best
Sion