I was thinking that it might be helpful for some of us (I am thinking of people like myself) to have a checklist of sorts that we can refer to when providing feedback to others. I know that this would help me provide more useful feedback as I am not very organised. A guide to things to keep in mind, maybe. I think it would help me to provide more helpful feedback.

What would be helpful for to have on such a checklist? Character development? Introduction? Closing? Punctuation /spelling?

Any thoughts?

Ani

Ani, this might be a good idea, although I do think a lot of us respond instinctively. However, that's not always ideal! I've just been dramaturg (script editor/judge) for a playwriting comp, and these are some of our criteria:

How distinctive and original is the writer's voice?

How is the piece structured and is this effective?

Are the characters rounded, believable and do they move the action forward?

The first one in particular made me think- I suppose because I wouldn't usually be focusing on this quite so bluntly.
I'm sure others will have ideas too. Dialogue, style, etc?

I think it would be great if work is critiqued on it’s strengths and weaknesses (which most are). Some writers are good at description others setting, character, dialogue. Knowing your strengths you can play to them and understanding your weaknesses you can work on them. Having a reader point them out to you is very helpful indeed.
Dawn,x

Ani,

This is a fascinating question.

Obviously a check-list that includes the practical aspects of writing can be produced - typos, grammar, punctuation etc. These reflect the 'care' that someone puts into their writing and, hopefully, will encourage better editing of one's own work.

It is when one comes to the 'quality' of the work that it becomes difficult to produce any check-list for we all read with individual eyes and from different standpoints.

It is difficult but I try to ask myself 'what comments can I make that will be the most useful' and, of course, this comes down to subjective assessments.

Similarly there is in the back of my mind the question 'how would this appeal to the "outside world" - does it have market potential?' I guess I ask this non-vocal question for my past catches up with me. I realise that this is one of the reason why I cannot crit poetry. I just don't know.

This is one reason why I welcome the introduction of 'levels' selected by Members who put up work for the comments of others. I have felt for some time that
many comments can be more helpful if they concentrate on what is 'not right' about a piece of writing; nor am I very taken with some of the more 'gushy' and over-the-top comments that one sees. To me it is rather like being in the dressing room after the curtain has gone down when one invariably gets the followers flock in to tell you how 'wonderful, Darling' your performance was when you know that it wasn't! Sure, give encouragement, tell them that you enjoyed it, give them a pat on the back, but always look for ways to
provide the most valuable help.

I don't think it is possible to produce a general check-list for while there are so many different 'levels' of writers on WW, there are just as many different 'levels' of critical abilities.

However I don't think you will go far wrong with being honest, helpful, kindly, diplomatic and objective.

Len writes about this well, and I tend to agree with him. Also, sometimes you come across a piece of work that by its very originality of content and style defies you to figure out what it is about it that gets to you. The thing I'd fear about a checklist is that we might get over-analytical. Our criting styles are as individual as our writing styles and I wouldn't want to see that monogenised away. But if it was proving difficult for some of us to crit, maybe those people could use guidelines. This relates to a conversation I was having with Len the other day when I was trying to disentangle the different aspects of criting all happening at the same time when we read. Perhaps you could create your own guidelines, what is it you're looking for in a piece of writing?...
Becca.

Many of us could give you a host of ideas on what to provide when critiquing. The problem is that many folk aren't looking for critique of any description (I've learned that to my cost on WW!) so it's better to say 'nice write' unless you want your head bitten off, or your inbox filled with hate mail. I guess what I'm trying to say is, ask the author what they want before you waste your valuable time on thoughtful but unwanted critiques.

Tabitha,

What you say shocks me a little. Yes, I am sure that most Members welcome the 'nice read' comments, but I am very surprised to learn of the 'hate mail' for I am sure that this could be dealt with by David.

What really interests me is your referemce to a 'host of ideas' as a basis for critique work. Why not put these forward? If we are to be constructive then ALL suggestions should be taken on board. It will then be for Members to decide if these suggestions would be of help to them, as individuals, to improve their own critical abilities.

I suspect that you feel the work of some Members needs to be heavily criticized but you refrain from providing what you see as 'constructive criticism' as you have already received 'very undesirable reactions' from your trying to be helpful.

I go along with this! With the new 'levels of criticism' it should be much easier to be more 'heavy' when you feel that this is better for the writer. However if this develops then it brings with it a challenge to all of us as 'critics' (and creative writers!) to use words that do not insult personally but reflect one's skill in critique work in the most constructive and helpful way... (diplomacy?)

Having said all that I would love to see your ideas for a check-list.

Regards,

Len

Tabitha, I'm not just shocked at what you said, but horrified. Are you saying that you've had hate mail here on WW, and if so did you do anything about it?

Regarding crits, apart from the obvious things, ie. grammar, spelling etc., reaction to a piece of work is often purely subjective. One could formulate a set of guidelines based on the sort of box assessment given by some short story competitions (see the Writers' Forum one I've reproduced below A Sting in the Tail), but it's usually that indefinable something that makes a piece of work special.

<Added>

http://www.writewords.org.uk/archive/946.asp

Re-reading the above something else occurs to me, and that's the question of grammar. Those rules may, in certain instances, be broken to good effect. I read a piece the other day where the writer had used the odd phrase in place of a sentence, but overall it worked, giving a distinctive style to to the narrator's voice. I think what I'm saying is that even rules one takes as immutable may be less fixed than one imagines, and that there is a danger that in setting guidelines these will be fixated on to the detriment of originality.

<Added>

Sorry, meant to use Owner Edit!

I've read this post with much interest. Being new to the WW forum and ways, I too have been frustrated, in myself, with not knowing how best to give acceptable feedback. Not wanting to be nothing but a cheerleader, but also not wanting to barge in with unwanted critique.

Particularly in the poetry groups, I notice the tendency to be nice rather than constructive -- the unspoken assumption seeming to be that a poem is always autobiographical and deeply personal that any critique of structure, vocabulary, choice of form, the consistency of voice or imager, and suggestions for improving (no, don't say the bad words!) scansion or metre -- could be misconstrued as being more stroppy than helpful.

I think readers should take the writer seriously when they say "Go on I can take it!" and go on... If someone did that for me, I'd feel liberated to (and educated how to) go on and do so for them.

As for lists of particular critical points to make -- what do people think about encouraging them in the group forums. If the forum leader set out a few guidelines for critique that month (i.e., "this month try to give the poet some ideas for how to improve their x, y, z..." or something like that -- it could be a way to get a reluctant group member to feel comfortable joining in -- and each poet would be almost guaranteed one or two solid comments towards revision.

Just some thoughts,

Smith

Nell,
You are right about breaking rules when it comes to grammar and other practical aspects of writing. However the basic rules need to be known and understood before one can effectively break them. After all in dialogue, good writers do this all the time to reflect their characters more vividly or accurately. Rules are strong guidelines not chains on creativity.

Len

(Don't understand your last line!)

Len, I agree, although there may be exceptions. I have so much more respect for, say, Picasso, who knew his craft inside out before he began to break the rules, than for the Brit pack, who never learnt them in the first place. Sorry to use artistic analogies instead of writerly ones - I'm just more knowledgeable in those.

Re. the 'Added' part of my post - if that's what you meant - I intended the second posting to be 'Added' to the first as an afterthought, rather than to clock up extra points!

<Added>

To clarify 'there may be exceptions'. I'm thinking here of that unschooled but startlingly original voice that one sometimes comes across - rare I know, but astonishing if not miraculous when it happens.

Tabitha, can I quietly say that you didn't exactly say that it was you who had had an inbox 'filled with hate mail.' Sending hate mail is a crimminal offence, and so if this has NOT really happened to you,- but you just felt like using those words to describe an experience, could you let us know on this forum. If, on the other hand, it is not an exaggeration, the situation cannot be left as it is. Could you clarify?
Regards,
Becca.

I hope to be able to take the silence after my last posting as a 'no.' And am cheered by that thought.
Becca.

Hello all,

I have just returned from holiday and have seen this interesting topic fro the first time. I belonged to a critique group we ahd some guidelines to work on. Her are some of them.

1, Characterisation: Do the characters seem real with depth and emotion. Ar ehtre motives of the charaters understandable and logical. Ar e the good guys good and the bad guys very bad?

2. Dialogue: Does the dialogue seem realistic? Can the reader imaging real peopl talking?

3. Setting: If the story is about the rich and famous the setting must show that affluence. IF poor the reader has to see that they are so. Is there an atmosphere in the story? Can the reader imaging the location?

4. Point of View: Is the POZ 1st or 3rd Person? Is the narrator able to see into the heads odf the charactors?

5. Development: Does the story develpop[e logically so the the reader can floow changes which occur? Is the progression if the characters and evenst logical or is the story too confusing?

6. Pacing: An important consideration. Pacing is the jey to appeal: How weel does the reader get involved? Does the action progress slowly or quickly? Different rweaders enjoy different pacings.

7. Mechanics: An embryo writer often has trouble with mechanics and needs help. Sentance structure, verb agreement and aspects of basic style. If a reader sees that there are problems with the mechanics they will specify the problems seen rather than simply stating that they6 are there.

General Rules:

Be honest: Now is not the time to LIE. Be gentle but tell the truth. Editors don't have time to tell you what they think critique partners do!

Be thick skinned: The first timne you have a story critiqued, it might be dificult for you. Some critiques ARE NEGATIVE.

<Added>

I am sorry but I hit the wrong button or something and I have not had time to edit or correct spelling errors. Worse thing is that it's happend twice as I have wrtten this diatribe, which is dammed annoying!!!

To continue from NEGATIVE above.

Some critiques are negative to your material. This does not mean that you are a bad writer. It's sometimes hard to separate our writing from ourselves but it is very necessary for you to learn to do so.

Consider comments carefully:

Not every comment a critique partner makes will apply to your story. YOU are the final judge! However don't ignore a valid comment because it hurts your feelings. Put the work down and re-write it later.

Be kind: It's important to treat others as you would have them treat you! Honesty does not mean brutality. A writer's story is his/her baby and you don't want to tell someone that her/his baby is ugly. Word your critiques carefully so as not to offend

Be Encouraging. Understand what they are trying to do Encourage one another to your best writing. Help when you get the dreaded writer's block. Hang in there together!!!

Be Promt and be Friendly: Get to know each other, be friends. The more you know about each other the better. Don't hang on to that critique, your friend is waiting to receive, he/she want's to know what you think so deal with it early.

Look at the BIG picture: Don't just nit pick at grammar errors and spelling. While this is helpful in a final draft, what you are looking for is the overall picture. Is the plot sound? do the charcters work for you?

So my friends , I have made a bit of a cock up of that but in general it gives some good guidance. Perhaps we might look at the individual items with Becca one day and set up some real guidelines which will form the basis of a good critique group, which is what we are all after: Good comment on what we are trying to write. How to write it well and if we can keep to those guidelines, nobody should be hurt by the genuine effort of all to be helpful.

Kindest regards
Tez