What I was on about was this: I think there is still a misconception that the short story is a truncated novel, and even that short story writers are people who haven't got around to writing their novel yet. In fact the reality is that it's a very different discipline.
I found a short story a couple of days ago which is as close as I've seen for a long while of a really good short story that is true to the form. Anne Marie, (Anisoara), is the writer and the story is 'The Potato.' I've asked her permission to write something about why I rate it.
The story is very focused and does not wander off the point.
The story looks simple, but it engages with something much bigger beyond its immediate context.
The characters and setting are described in a few elegant and skillful sentences, with no over use of adjectives.
There are no straggling bits left untied, the story has a shape, and the reader is not led away from the nub of it with irrelevant detail that leaves you thinking 'Oh, what happened to that then?'
There is no writer's ego in this story, it's confident, and doesn't try to be ambitious just for the sake of it.
There are 5 characters in the story, including the Potato, and the Potato becomes a character in the most seamless way; the reader cares about the fate of the Potato.
Anisoara tells the reader just enough about the characters to allow you to invent the rest for yourself, that's intelligent.
The pace is consistant and confident.
The dialogue has not a single word to many, and hints at some serious sorrow/conflict? between two of the characters.
I know that after some crits Anisoara changed a couple of things, and last time I looked there was a glitchy weird thing at the end of the sentences which has to be ignored.
I'd recommend anyone who was interested in the craft of short story writing, (if I may use such a folksy kind of term), to take a look.
Becca.

Some good points here, Becca, and a very worthy example of the art of the short story.

I think they are incredibly difficult to write. They use a completely different set of muscles to a novel and I do get mildly irritated when I see short stories attracting comments suggesting they should be expanded into a novel.

I know why people say this. They enjoyed the story and want to read on but it ain’t that simple. Short story writing is not a short-cut. It is a very difficult skill to cultivate and I applaude people like Ani, who have achieved it.

Dee.

Hi Dee, sometimes a short story should be expanded into a novel because the writer hasn't understood the discipline of the short story, and how different it is, that's my point I guess. But at the bottom of the whole business, novel writing and short story writing, one thing remains true to both, if the content is boring or insular, then it isn't much of a deal. That's always the thing I most fear, - that I'll never find a good and intense thing to write about again.
Becca.

Now it seems the, I hope not pompas, pampas, no that's grass, - papoose, not that one either, - that's a kid in a thing made of bark on your back when you're in the corn field, - Pompous, that's the one,...
Now it seems that the, I hope not pompous, thingy I wrote on short story writing is popping up like mushrooms. I don't mind, just a glitch.
Have a serious problem with spelling at the moment. Why is that? If I felt safe in the world, I don't think I'd mind, but I don't.
Becca.

I think I realised some time ago that successful short story writing is very different from novel writing. A writer who is good at one is not necessarily good at the other. And yet we are encouraged to do both, which can be frustrating. "Get a few short stories under your belt before you tackle a novel" I was told once. As you said, Becca, the skills you need to write good short stories are entirely different from those you need to write a good novel.

My short stories always seem to want to develop a convoluted plot, and I've written very few that I'm entirely happy with. I do know it works when the shape of the story in my head is complete. If it feels there needs to be more, then it's not right.

It's useful to come across good examples of something - it then allows me to see why something works, and see what is good about it.

Thanks for the pointers, Becca.

Cas

I'm glad if my thoughts on it are useful, and grateful to Anne Marie. Ignore the piece of blither above your posting, don't know what panic I was in there about not being able to spell, I can this morning.
Becca.

Hello again Becca,
I found it very useful to read your post and to be able to directly relate it to Anisoara's story.
I agree with you, it's brilliant. It reads so effortlessly and as you say with just the right amount of information, and it respects the reader's intelligence. It's so confident too.
I've recently been reading Raymond Carver's short stories. I think they have all the qualities you speak of. I'm besotted by them.
I'm struggling myself with writing the short story [Duggie's Coat] as you know, and I'm just about to revise it with some of the points you make very much in mind. This is such a useful website.
Amnesia
PS. I was disapointed that no one carried on the 'Favourite short story' thread on the short story forum.

Amnesia, favourite short story? There are so many aren't there, I love Carver as well. Have you read Grace Paley? And the early very stoned works of Tom Corrigesan Boyle?
Becca.

Thanks for posting that Becca, very helpful. I like the idea of the potato being a character - yes, we do care about its fate in the end.
Well done Anne Marie
Elspeth

Short story writing is a difficult discipline. What makes it even harder, is that it depends entirely on the market you're targeting – women's mags, literary mags, etc. The only way to be successful in the market of your choice is to read what's being published there, and to understand WHY they accept the work they do. It seems obvious, but it's harder than it looks. I speak from bitter experience, folks...! :-))

I have to agree that the story from Anne Marie is a good example of short story writing. Becca carefully avoids some of the pitfalls of the 'How to Write a Good Short Story' advocate by highlighting some of the specific positive aspects of that story and offering them as general guidelines. This is how I read Becca's comments.

In my opinion it is not sound advice to 'limit' a good short story to 1,500 words - if one were advising short stories for magazines then there would be some justification for implanting this figure in the minds of new writers.

I have read the advice of 'not too many adjectives' a number of times - again I would be wary of such advice for the budding writer so often adds 'colour' to his or her writing with the use of adjectives, but as the process of learning develops, the writer will begin to understand that there are other ways to write colour into their work. However writing with a deliberate attempt to reduce adjectives in the first place is not good advice; Becca does not advise this but a relatively new writer might well form that opinion.

I agree that the short story writer and the novelist have to call upon different creative qualities within themselves but not the idea that they are two separate people.

Len

I thoroughly disagree with the 'no loose-ends' definition of a short story. I write short stories all the time, and while they may not be of the highest quality, they are written to convey a thought, emotion or personal conflict. An idea, a flash of inspiration that needs to be expressed in a short passage of writing.

I've no doubt that Anne Marie's piece is wonderful to reap such praise, but that by no means that I should suddenly follow her example, alter my writing style and ultimately defy the entire meaning of my aggressively verbose babblings.

I've always enjoyed short story writing because there's so much freedom to be had. You can ask the reader to make more assumptions about the scnes, the characters and the history, which in longer writing needs to be built up on its own.

A short story is whatever you want it to be, just as with any other piece of writing, and much as I hate to be seem to be classifying everything, if short story writing needs to be what Becca describes it as, then I'll have to start describing my work as something completely different.

Is this discussion about writing a good short story or about getting a good short story published? Because I believe there’s a difference.

If you write for your own enjoyment then, really, you can do whatever you want with your short stories – you can write the stories you want to read. Or the things you want to say.

But, if you’re looking to have them published, you must identify your market and write to suit. And I’ve found that most markets want the story construction Becca has outlined. In particular they want all loose threads tied up and a satisfactory (in most cases read happy) ending.

And Len, we’ve crossed swords about adjectives before. Yes, they add colour to a story and it would be a bleak world without them but I think the word missing from Becca’s list is ‘unnecessary’. It’s not good practice to encourage new writers to use adjectives to prop up a weak noun. They should check every adjective and ask themselves if a stronger, more specific, noun would obviate the need for a supporting adjective.

Dee.

Dee, a wise distinction to make, especially with Insane "burning for an argument" Bartender hanging around.

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Hi Len,
What I posted above is a piece on why I personally rate the story as in '..permission to write something about why I rate it.' I don't think there is anywhere where I say this is how it should be done. I do say '..recommend anyone who is interested in the craft of short story writing to take a look.' Which is not quite the same as saying 'interested in the craft of short story writing to conform to these guidelines' is it? It's entirely my take on it and hardly begins to broach the subject anyway.
'with no over use of adjectives' seems to me the same as saying 'not too many.' Just thought I'd clarify that as these forums often go pear shaped.
Becca.