Ok sounds like a dumb question. But just take this on a simple level, say a short story.

Why is a brilliantly written, entertaining, elegantly structured, witty and entirely readable description of a wonderful evening spent socialising with friends not a story?

What's the spark that changes something like that from a reminiscence or a piece of journalism into into a story?

Huh?

Z

Well, I think it is a story. I think journalists talk about stories all the time.

Perhaps - I am probably talking nonsense, so forgive me (the dog just ate the burgers I was making, and this has unhinged me somewhat) - maybe you are asking where does journalism cross a boundary and become fiction? Or literature? Or whatever?

I'm only thinking aloud and have no real idea, but would it be something to do with (a) being purely fictional, rather than a narrative account of something that actually happened? and (b) having a plot, and various different scenes, where certain things are kept hidden and then appear at various points, twisting and turning, and thus making the reader feel that they are on a journey of some kind, rather than simply (simply?!!) being amused and entertained by an account of one event.

And where the conclusion needs to be more satisfying than, 'And a fine evening was had by all.'

Maybe?

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Sorry. I didn't mean to say 'Maybe you are asking' - I'm sure you know what you are asking. I was just changing it to suit me.

A story is a story when you don't feel like saying 'so what?' at the end of it.

My definition.

A.

I think "stories" can be factual or fictional. I've read some pretty nail-biting war stories (for example) that were meticulously researched. There's sometimes nothing more dramatic than a true story turned into narrative, with a bit of harmless fiction thrown in to pad out the missing details.

But I think you've hit the nail on the head with "plot". Something has to happen so that the protagonist(s) go on some kind of journey, whether that's physical or emotional, even if it's a circular journey back to where they started. The status quo has to be disturbed in some way, even if only temporarily.

Mind you a lot of "stories" can be chock-full of events but I've still wanted to go "so what" at the end of them. (Particularly "picaresque"/episodic stories where this happens and then this happens and then this happens and it all adds up to a whole bunch of nothing. Fantasy novels are especially prone to this. But then maybe we're getting into the much thornier question of
"what makes a good story". If only we knew...

Yes, I agree with Griff and Ashlinn - something has to happen. In a short story it might just be that someone realises something they didn't before, or it might be that a whole life changes or a kingdom falls. I think you feel 'so what?' if you can't at the end see why the story was written - what it was trying to say. (You can also feels 'so what?' because you don't care about the characters, but that's more of a 'so why was I supposed to be interested?' so what.)

When journalists talk about a story I think they mean the beginning-middle-end of a series of events: they need to sort a random set of notes - X existed, Y happened, Z happened - into something that seems to have some cause-and-effect, some reason to it: X did Y so Z happened.

Maybe in a fictional story you need some sense of cause-and-effect too, otherwise you read it wondering why all the elements are in there.

Emma

Do Raymond Carver's stories fit your definition, Emma?

Naomi

Of course there's no reason why a

brilliantly written, entertaining, elegantly structured, witty and entirely readable description of a wonderful evening spent socialising with friends

couldn't make a fantastic story with a bit of poetic licence. For example if the author dropped in a few nuggets about the background and character of the friends, and as the evening progressed we started to piece together some further revelations about those friends as events and conversations progress.

It sounds perhaps more like theatre than prose, but still, it becomes a story as soon as the audience is engaged and starts having plot threads to consider, however tiny.

Even without plot threads, your setup might still be workable as a framework for comedy, if you turned it into a series of set-pieces, one-liners, and stand-up character-based monologues. Although with this approach you'd probably need to be writing for performance rather than the written word. I can definitely imagine a sketch show based around a bunch of friends at a pub or dinner party, without any plot to speak of.

But given your setup, Friends is one of the first things that comes to mind. I went to a comedy workshop recently where we studied the Friends pilot episode. The first five minutes is structurally fascinating. There is not a whiff of plot, just dialogue, carefully building the characters of these five people we have never met before (but who will eventually manage to sustain one of the longest sitcom TV runs in history). And everything we need to know about them for the rest of the series, we learn in that first five minutes. In detail. For example, we learn that this guy Chandler has sexuality issues, and issues with his parents, and keeps telling gags but that's through nervousness and insecurity, and so on for all five of them. And it's all done through jokes. In five minutes.

Then, bang on the sixth minute, just as Ross is bemoaning the state of his marriage, Rachel walks into the coffee shop wearing a wedding dress (the textbook "inciting incident" taking us from the normal world into the comedy world, from "Setup" to "Complications Ensue"), and we're set to go for the next ten years.

Sorry for the digression there. I was just impressed that something which seems so light and trivial on the surface was so carefully constructed. I guess my point was that it only actually turned into a story when Rachel turned up. Before then it was just character work and jokes.

Emma says: 'In a short story it might just be that someone realises something they didn't before'- I think this perfectly sums up Carver's stories, which have always been a challenge to make fit the rules of short stories.

I am a pure, unashamed fan of Friends. I'm glad someone has mentioned it here.
I think it's brilliant, though not as brilliant as The Royle Family, which somehow manages to be hilarious with barely a joke told.

Well, you say that, but there's jokes and jokes. (Yes, I love The Royle Family too, it's brilliant).

You do get the occasional "traditional" joke with setup and "unexpected twist" punchline ie

Denise: Can I leave Baby David with you on Friday night, Mam ?

Barb: Of course, we love to see him, what time are you picking him up ?

Denise: Monday.

But the script just motors along with lines like


Dave -"I love red sauce, me."
Denise -"I don't like it."
Barb - "Ooh, it's funny that, isn't it? Him liking red sauce and you not liking red sauce, and yet you get on so well."
Denise -"Yeah."
Barb -"I wonder what sauce Baby David'll like."


which is really setup (lines 1 & 2), punchline (line 3), beat/pause/anticipation (line 4) and "topper", ie a second punchline from the same setup, (line 5).

OK these are character-based jokes (unlike the babysitting one, you couldn't really use these lines outside the context of these well-established characters) but still great jokes nonetheless.

Here's a great page of Royle Family quotes that I found. I hope they bring it back again sometime.

I guess I want, perhaps fruitlessly, to identify the vital spark of storytelling, something as defining as the thing that separates the rocks from the animals, and to try and get it in as few words as poss. Events arenecessary to a story )though they don't have to be physical) and I would say that one thing a relating of events has to have, be they physical or emotional/intellectual, to make a story (and I agree with the idea that the events have to 'matter' is the presence of at least one protagonatist of whatever kind even if it's the narrator, which is why the simple depiction of an evening doesn't count. There has to be a focus for the reader and I think that focus is defined by the writer's interest in a protagonist. The relating of events is therefore conveyed entirely and rigourously with regard to their impact on the protagonist(s). No other events are useful to the story.

Thinking out loud here... and so much for the as few words as poss (: .


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Did somebody drop a smiley? No idea where that came from.

I guess I want, perhaps fruitlessly, to identify the vital spark of storytelling, something as defining as the thing that separates the rocks from the animals,

Hmmmm. This sounds like procrastination to me. Just write it. ;-)


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But I found this in an on-line dictionary: (I never procrastinate, me). I don't know how to make those link things that everyone else can do.


Story:

1. a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader; tale.

2. a fictitious tale, shorter and less elaborate than a novel.

3. such narratives or tales as a branch of literature: song and story.

4. the plot or succession of incidents of a novel, poem, drama, etc.: The characterizations were good, but the story was weak.

5. a narration of an incident or a series of events or an example of these that is or may be narrated, as an anecdote, joke, etc.

6. a narration of the events in the life of a person or the existence of a thing, or such events as a subject for narration: the story of medicine; the story of his life.

7. a report or account of a matter; statement or allegation: The story goes that he rejected the offer.

This sounds like procrastination to me.

Oh yes.

Z

Griff, I think my favourite The Royle Family line is:

Nana: Ooh, my doctor's Pakistani, but he's quite open about it.

I was rolling on the floor. And it's serious too: just in that one gag there's about forty years of social history underscoring it.

Sappholit - to make a link, use the format

{url=http://www.writewords.org.uk/}WriteWords{/url}

except with square brackets [] rather than {}.

So the actual web address goes in the first "url" tag while the text you want to be visible in the posting goes inbetween the opening "url" tag and the closing "/url" tag.

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Sammy - awesome quote! Very funny.

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Beautifully concise, too - setup and punch both in the same line, ie a genuine "one-liner". So many other shows (eg My Family) would have taken so long over setting that up, that by the time the joke arrived, it wouldn't have been funny.