It's a bit embarrassing really. I know I should be talking about Tolstoy and Dickens, but I can't help it. I'm a fan of Maclean and Fleming. I enjoyed 'Where Eagles Dare' and am currently paddling my way towards Crab Key with Bond to find out what Dr No is up to. Worst of all, I've just discovered the novellas of Hank Janson. Anyone else out there prepared to confess to a few literary sins?

I know I should be talking about Tolstoy and Dickens

I think the word 'should' should (ahem) be banned from the English language.

Cath

Along with 'ought'.

Emma

I agree, particularly where writing is concerned. Is their a way we ought to be writing or rules we should be following? I've noticed that bestselling novels (and I mean those that sell by the shedload) are full of the mistakes we are often told to correct by consultants and agents. Do they really know what they're talking about? Wouldn't fiction today be far more vibrant if there were fewer experts making arbitrary judgements based on their own tastes? I have to admit, I'm not really embarrassed by the fact that I would prefer to read a Wilbur Smith to a Zadie Smith. Who wants well written, worthy and dull when you can have badly written, sensational and exciting (and that's not a comment on either of the two authors mentioned!)

The prime word in the English language that should be removed is 'Diet'.

However, with choice of reading matter NEVER be ashamed of reading anything by any author of any genre or subject matter.

If you notice many 'mistakes' (as Gulliver puts it) based upon what many 'consultants and agents' may say, then at least you would have become aware of these and decide for yourself how they might affect your writing.

No, I do not agree that fiction would be more vibrant if there were fewer 'experts', for it is not what they say but what the writer does about the comments made.

Len

No, I do not agree that fiction would be more vibrant if there were fewer 'experts', .

No, I don't agree either. The job of editors and agents is to be a representative 'reader' for the author. While they're no more immune to vanity than anyone else, they don't set themselves up as experts, they would all admit that their opinions can't in the end be other than personal and most would admit that their judgement is more accurate in some types/genres of work than others.

I'm much more worried about the dreadful how-to-write-a-bestseller books, busy saying that you need a reversal in chapter four and then you'll sell a million. And by what I've heard of some CW courses, kicking the stuffing out some writers, and ironing out the individuality of others.

for it is not what they say but what the writer does about the comments made

Hear, hear! If as a writer you can't see the truth in what someone says about your work, you should stick to what you've written. If you can, change it in your own terms. A writer who hasn't developed that much sense of what they're trying to do, that much objectivity about whether they've succeeded, and that big and specialised a tool kit, isn't a properly developed writer.

Emma

Somewhere in the forums I read that 75% of books fail to make back their initial advances. If we assume that editor's and agents take on books with the idea that they're going to make a profit, doesn't this indicate that editors and agents are more than likely to get it wrong with a book than right. Would this sort of failure rate be tolerated in any other business? Or are we saying that the book-buying public wouldn't know a good book if it hit them in the face? Perhaps it's time for those who sit in judgement on texts to pay less attention to POV, use of adjectives, adverbial clauses and syntax and just ask themselves one, basic question, "I may not like this book, but will it sell?"

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If as a writer you can't see the truth in what someone says about your work

Now there's a huge assumption. Just because someone else suggests you change your work, does that mean their judgement is true? What is the criteria for truth in this case? Too much humility can be soul-destroying.

Gulliver, no, no, I don't think that at all. What I meant was that moment when someone says something about your work - that the first chapter goes slowly, say - and you find yourself thinking, 'Well, yes, I think they've got a point there, now I look at it again. I didn't want it to go fast, but if they're right that many readers will get bored and wander off, maybe I should do something about it.'

The other kind of criticism is things like: 'It would sell really well if you could you just make him tall, dark and handsome. And maybe she should be beautiful. And while you're at it, how about nixing the sub-plot' where you can shrug it off, because obviously they haven't engaged enough with the book to be worth listening to.

On your first point, it's worth remembering that publishers still make money on a book even if it doesn't earn out its advance, and don't necessarily see such a book as a failure, particularly if they have faith in the author. Earning out certainly isn't the only criterion of success. And like any trade, publishers produce different products for different reasons: some are super-profitable, others are on their list for prestige as much as profit, and still others are books that they personally love, and keep in print as long as they just about pay their way.

Emma

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And back on topic, I have a weakness for middle-ranking 1930s detective fiction. If it comes in a green Penguin cover, I'll read it!

I've also read the whole of Susan Howatch's Starbridge series. I found her combination of compelling story-telling, functional prose (goodness knows, no better than that), and a really intelligent history of the theological battles of the Church of England in the 20th Century weirdly compelling. The only historical of hers I've read left a very bad taste in my mouth, though I have to confess I did finish it.

Emma

Gulliver,

Take the word 'truth' and substitute the word 'relevance', remembering that this is, in the end, 'a matter of opinion'.

I am not sure what an 'expert' is in the field of fictional writing but read and listen to all comments. You will find as confidence in your own writing grows you can dismiss most of the comments with a pat on the head, but there will always be gems of advice that will add to your knowledge and improve your writing.

Len

You will find as confidence in your own writing grows you can dismiss most of the comments with a pat on the head, but there will always be gems of advice that will add to your knowledge and improve your writing.

Exactly!

Emma

I agree with anyone who says that there's no embarassment in reading "popular" fiction, speaking as someone who has overcome his own temporary attack of snobbery.

I spent many happy years reading Fleming, Ludlum, Asimov, Arthur C Clarke and many others. After discovering more literary fiction and a desire to write I left the page turners behind - I was definitely aiming to be the next Ian McEwan.

With the help of an excellent tutor at Birmingham University I realised recently that to ignore the qualities of the bestsellers is very short-sighted. There's a great opportunity to combine the depth and insight of the literary end of the spectrum with the best of genre writing to create something new.

So don't just read the bestsellers, learn from them too! (Any excuse to reread some old favourites.)

Anthony

Speaking of old favourites, in my original thread, I mentioned Hank Janson. Does anyone have any opinions on this author? I've just discovered his works (Post-war gangster writer, prosecuted under the Obscene Publications Act - you know, the one that did it for D H Lawrence.) Not very PC, but quite a read.

Gulliver.
Hank Janson's publisher was Telos Publishing who specialise in Horror and near-the-knuckle books. You can buy their books on-line but only if you are over 18.

I wonder how the Publishers establish this?

Len

I've already bought a few Janson's through Amazon (cheaper than the Telos site). I'm thinking of subscribing for the rest. I was just wondering if anoyone else has read them. It would be interesting to compare notes.

words and phrases that should also be banned


'absolutely'

'at this moment in time'

anything that implies you can have 'more than 100%' ( you can't)

'I myself personally '

along with the current habit of making a staement sound like a question aka the Convicts habit 'How wet is that' etc when they mean that its raining heavily.

I make no secret of the fact that I think Barnaby Rudge is one of Dicken's best works but find his others equallly entharlling and a great social commentary upon life

Alistair Maclean , etc I also read I see no shame in reading fiction of any sort why are people so snobbish about literature or isjust thsoepeople who name drop and dont ever pick up a book other than to move it around their coffee table when they have visitors