As a second critique.

Wow. I did approach them some time ago, but I thought their prices were pretty steep then.

Their prices are very steep indeed. Actually I re read the critique last night and some of the things they say will help improve my novel. It's the fact that they say that a second critique will be necessary that [I don't like]. Generally though, it will help improve, I hope.


[Edited by david bruce at 10:04:00 on 29 January 2013
Reason: legal]

[Edited by david bruce at 11:05:00 on 29 January 2013
Reason: promotional]

It is what it is. I posted it because i've had nothing but good experiences with Cornerstones, but yes, we all have different views on these comps and i credit anyone reading this post in being able to make their own personal, informed, opinion!

I was a little surprised at the £10 fee, though.

And yes, i can also thoroughly recommend Terry!

It is what it is.

It is by no means alone, either.

It does seem to be the trend to dress-up standard search for new business / new mss as competitions. Other recent examples include the Greenhouse agency competition, which was (free and) absolutely no different to a call for submissions, and the Dublin Novel fair (that was _very_ not free) and amounted to paying a sizable chunk of money to enter a competition to win the chance to make a submission to agents you could easily have approached through another route...

On the one hand, a company can choose whatever method it wants to solicit new business, and must in order to survive.

On the other, there is a growing conflict of interest between working to make money _for_ the author versus working to make money _from_ the author. Equally, new business initiatives (like the Dublin Novel fair and that big-5 publisher who launched / purchased a self-pub author milking business recently) represent a move in the industry that all writers should deplore.

Paid review is slightly different in that it is by definition an author service that the author must pay for, as opposed to agency that should be self-funding, but I still think calling it a "competition" is somewhat disingenuous, just as much as I am certain that their introduction fee is not a good deal for writers.

G

Gaius, you're right; Cornerstones is not alone. The Writers' Workshop calls itself 'Your path to literary agents'. Again, note they don't say, 'Your path to getting a publishing contract', i.e. because anyone can be a path to a literary agent, especially when all they mean is they might put your book in front of one, same as you could do for yourself. Here is the opening statement on their website:

The world's best editorial service for first time writers. We offer tough, realistic and constructive feedback on your writing - similar in style to the kind of feedback professional authors get from their publishers. If your work is strong enough to sell, we will help you place it with literary agents - and we have an outstanding record of success.

Leaving aside the unverifiable claim that they're the 'best', I'd say that 'similar' here has rather wide margins to it. And any author with a brain can see that if their work is strong enough to sell, there's clearly no need to get the Literary Workshop to submit their ms and take a cut: they can just do it themselves.

Their definition of 'success' ...concentrating as it does not on the service they can provide in improving your ms but on clients' books that have been published. Given that this will only have happened to a small percentage of their clients, what they're actually saying, then, is that they vast majority of people who use their services DON'T succeed.

On the other, there is a growing conflict of interest between working to make money _for_ the author versus working to make money _from_ the author.

I think this is the nub of it, really. As you know, there are agents now setting themselves up as publishers of their clients' books (of backlists usually) which can't NOT be a conflict of interest.


[Edited by Anna Reynolds at 09:32:00 on 29 January 2013
Reason: ]

[Edited by Anna Reynolds at 10:01:00 on 29 January 2013
Reason: legal]

I'm going to stick up for 'The Writers' Workshop' a bit: not saying their website is free from some rather grandiose pronouncements, but they do also have some very tough and realistic advice there too.

They're also much cheaper than Cornerstones, and don't to my knowledge push 2nd critiques.

I do have a soft spot for them, because until I attended one of their events (had to submit a chapter for a book doctor session) I had no idea if I could write at all. I can't say how buoyed up I was by the comments I received, and that's what set me on the road to thinking I might not be completely deluded after all. (Though on bad days, the suspicion returns )

Later, I attended another event where I'd booked two ten-minute sessions with agents (again with initial chapters looked at in advance). Both agents have asked for fullls, with one requesting exclusivity for 30 days.

I'm quite prepared for both of these to come to nothing, but I don't think I'd even have got that far without that initial confidence boost. And I think when you're just starting out, and you can't trust your own judgement, agencies like 'The Writers' Workshop' can very often offer that helping hand.

By the same token, it's when you're just starting out and desperate to bag an agent that you're at your most susceptible to anything that seems to offer a chance of tipping the balance in your favour...

<Added>

I can also highly recommend Terry!

I thought I'd step in here to clear up any misunderstanding. Cornerstones ran a WowFactor competition a few years ago and didn't charge an entry fee. We thought it would be a great way to unearth some dazzling MSS and that it would be fun! We had no idea how well it would be received when over 1000 submissions came in. It then took nearly four months full time to process but it was worth it as we launched two debut writers. This time, we felt we had to charge a nominal fee to go towards our admin costs (sending out press releases, paying for advertising costs and covering our work time) and it is no different to many other competitions run by companies that don't have our longstanding, healthy reputation. It is not a money-making scheme by any means and our motivation is to find two dazzling writers and we're excited by this. The prize that we're offering is £400 per MS (one children's and one adult) and upwards according to word length. For instance, if a MS is 100,000 words then that will be £800 and so on. We have four leading agents going through the longlist to winner stage. While we can't force an agent to represent any of the authors, and therefore we could not guarantee this, these agents are giving up their time - it's a huge amount of work for them even at this stage of the competition - so the goal for all of us is to find dazzling talent, for agents to want to represent these authors, which will hopefully lead to publication deals. And yes, by giving up our time to read and edit six MSS at the shortlist stage we ask for a 10% commission as a one-off payment. This is our normal working practice when we work with an author for free - sometimes for a long time - and we feel it is only fair as we don't have a stake in ongoing royalties as agents do. I'm dismayed by the comment that we're expensive as we like to remain competitive. Authors who research our two main competitors say that we're pretty much in line with the others. Sometimes, depending on the service and we all differ in what we offer, we charge more and sometimes less. Even if we don't take on an author - we have a filter system and I believe we're the only consultancy who does - we give all authors free feedback on opening pages and synopsis and answer any query that the author may have. Yes we're a business and authors generally say they find us invaluable and like how we operate. Our primary ethos and desire, though, is to help an author and if we can answer a query in five minutes that might otherwise take a long time to find out then we consider that a good thing. If any author has any queries or concerns I'd invite them to email me directly helen@cornerstones.co.uk as we always like feedback and try to better our service if we can. In the meantime, we've had some great responses to our competition so fingers crossed that there are some dazzlers in there. Best of luck if you are thinking of entering and if not, that is absolutely fine as well and I wish you all the best. Warm wishes, Helen

<Added>

NB: a one-off payment post publication deal if that is what it leads to.

I'm going to stick up for 'The Writers' Workshop' a bit: not saying their website is free from some rather grandiose pronouncements, but they do also have some very tough and realistic advice there too.

I'm sure they do, but I've been on the receiving end of some really BAD service from them, so you have to be careful. And again, they're not cheap - around £450 for a report on a 100,000 word novel.

do have a soft spot for them, because until I attended one of their events (had to submit a chapter for a book doctor session) I had no idea if I could write at all. I can't say how buoyed up I was by the comments I received, and that's what set me on the road to thinking I might not be completely deluded after all. (Though on bad days, the suspicion returns ) Later, I attended another event where I'd booked two ten-minute sessions with agents (again with initial chapters looked at in advance). Both agents have asked for fullls,

I've had exactly the same experience with agent one-to-one's at their events and yes, it is a major boost and such boosts are hard to come by for most unpublished writers. And I suppose one way to think about it, would be to think that the cost of such courses is a good way to buy face-to-face introductions which might help you to stand out from the crowd. But they're not cheap and in my experience, if your work is good enough to get an agent to ask for the full mss when meeting face-to-face, you will also get requests when you sub cold.

I think I'm starting to feel rather queasy abouty the whole industry that has sprung up feeding off the unpublished. I sometimes feel it is driven by the surfeit of writers who can't make a living through writing and don't want to make a living do another type of job, combined with the fact that agents/ publishing organisations are looking to develop new revenue streams and have targeted wannabee writers as a lucrative source of income. It's not just people like Writers' Workshop: agents such as Curtis Brown and publishers such as The Guardian are all offering writing courses and the carrot that is being dangled is all about meeting influential people as much as it is about learning the craft. But I wonder, does it mean that ultimately it's going to be harder than ever to get through without any kind of contacts? Does it mean that it will become essential to grease someone's palm by going on a course with a meet & greet element, in order to circumvent the black hole of the slush pile?

I have no problem with the commission at all as Cornerstones will get you a deal - it's only fair because they help you get your work out in the world and with a handful of rejections already on my plate, I think what Cornerstones or any other literary service offer is fair despite the hefty price.

The only thing that is upsetting is having to pay again for a manuscript appraisal once you have implemented the changes.

Overall though, their services are ok and where prices are concerned they are the standard.

I've just started re editing but don't know if I'll be able to get it appraised again as it is too expensive for my budget.

As for the competition, well Mslexia charged 20 pounds and others charge too but they offer you a cash prize if I'm not mistaken. However, most competions charge anyway so it's only fair that Cornerstones charge I suppose.

Either way, their services are there if you want them. Yes, they should make it clear that second appraisals are charged but overall I'm happy with what they gave me back and I will have a better picture once I get the one-to-one part of my appraisals done.

I do know they have some free services but haven't really understood which ones.

I have no problem with the commission at all as Cornerstones will get you a deal - it's only fair because they help you get your work out in the world and with a handful of rejections already on my plate, I think what Cornerstones or any other literary service offer is fair despite the hefty price.

But the point is, Cornerstones don't get you a deal. Either you can do that or your agent will. And they don't help you get your work out into the world. All they do is put it front of an agent (if they think it's good enough). How's that different to you putting it in front of an agent? Don't forget it's the publisher who pays for books and they are not going to be in the slightest bit interested at Cornerstone's involvement in the process.

The only thing that is upsetting is having to pay again for a manuscript appraisal once you have implemented the changes.

What's the point in continuing to try to please an agency by re-submitting to them and paying again? Surely, if they've done their job, you should be able to go away and re-shape your ms so that it can be submitted direct to publishers (or via agents if you prefer)? Don't forget, agencies (like agents) have very little idea what's going to sell anyway.

Overall though, their services are ok and where prices are concerned they are the standard.

Actually, they're not the standard. They're common for the larger agencies, simply because they price their overheads at two-thirds of the fee you pay, i.e. your reader/editor is only getting a third of the fee. Independents, such as myself, don't of course have this problem.

As for the competition, well Mslexia charged 20 pounds and others charge too but they offer you a cash prize if I'm not mistaken. However, most competions charge anyway so it's only fair that Cornerstones charge I suppose.

This is true. However, it's debatable that this is really a competition at all, because Cornerstones are not judging your whole book. To quote:

Agents will choose two winners from the shortlist to receive a critique from Cornerstones (retail value £400 and upwards) including a brainstorm session with the editor afterwards, potentially leading to agent representation.

Note 'from the shortlist', i.e. Cornersones will whittle down the majority of submissions. This could take them as little as 30 secs per entry, since just reading a few paragraphs will probably tell them whether or not the ms is at the necessary stage. And don't forget, while winning Mslexia's contest wins you £2,000 plus publication in the magazine, all that Cornerstones' gets you is a reader's report. Which raises the question, what if your ms is good enough to be submitted to publishers now? Will they tell you, or just do the report anyway?


[Edited by david bruce at 17:29:00 on 28 January 2013
Reason: ]

I think I'm starting to feel rather queasy abouty the whole industry that has sprung up feeding off the unpublished. I sometimes feel it is driven by the surfeit of writers who can't make a living through writing and don't want to make a living do another type of job, combined with the fact that agents/ publishing organisations are looking to develop new revenue streams and have targeted wannabee writers as a lucrative source of income.

I think that's absolutely fair comment. And I also agree in principle that if your manuscript is good enough to get full requests at an event, it should be good enough to make its way out of the slushpile unaided.

But I do still think there is a place for these agencies, because I think a lot of people feel as I did, that their own instincts about their work simply weren't a reliable guide as to whether it might make the grade or not.

And I loathed the meeting and greeting bit - I made myself do it because it offered the chance to hear comments straight from the horse's/agent's mouth. I was fully expecting to be told what I'd sent was pretty rubbish, but if I'd sent in to agents in the normal way, the likelihood is there wouldn't have been any kind of feedback.

And if you don't get the feedback, how do you know if there's anything to put right?

Helen, I've just seen your post. The question I still have with what you're doing is that if someone is a 'dazzling' talent, what do they need you for? They can go to any agent, indeed direct to publisers, and their talent will be recognised. This competition isn't helping their talent on at all - you're just spotting it then eventually cashing in on 10% of the 'worldwide rights'.

As for fees, yes you probably do charge similar rates to your two main competitors. But for comparison, I just finished a report yesterday that by your current prices you would have charged £640 for. I charged less than a third of that. Part of the reason is, as I mentioned earlier, you take as owner/manager two-thirds of the fee. Another reason is I don't confine authors to a per-thousand word fee - an arrangement which means in practice they often pay for services they may not actually want or need.

Well, i can't begin to say how much i've learnt, in my time, from editorial reports i've had done - as the feedback is personal, and with Cornerstones i asked for wider feedback to help me in general with my writing - not just that book - which i got.

Whatever career we choose, at some point, we normally have to invest in training, and that's how i see this. Some writers choose to go on a course, instead. Others pay a mentor. No, the money isn't easy to find and i could have never afforded a second critique, but it's always been money well spent, imo.

It isn't for everyone, though, yet if you do go for it you need to shop around, and be very very clear with the agency, as to what you expect - espeically, imo, regarding who is actually writing your report, ie ask what their editing experience actually is.