Good advice, hd, thanks. If nothing else, it allows me to evaluate the quality of feedback before serious expenditure. That said, a review of the first 50 pages can only ever tell you about your writing - assuming your writing is consistent throughout the book.

With an earlier draft of the novel, I was simply blown away by the insight that a full read from one of my more literary relatives provided. He could not only tell me where the characters worked but also, by the bits that he "got wrong" or thought superfluous, I could see where I had focussed the writing badly.

This is all structural stuff that 50 pages won't show. The result? From a finished script that I knew was wrong but could see no way to improve, I have completely rewritten from scratch and it is about a gazillion times better.

The question is, is it good enough?

On the score of expense, a post on another message board I frequent, asking what to charge for an editing job the writer had been offered, (admittedly editing, not just critiquing) suggests to me that price is very definitely related to how detailed a look you'll get, especially when you remember the agency will take a modest cut too:

"I do it for £12 an hour. A professional I've come across does it for £14 an hour - but she takes much longer because she uses the Word editing facilities to do it on screen, so would charge about £1500 for a book of about 150,000 words. Unlike her, I work from the print out, and just use red pen plus accompanying notes if explanation is needed... The most I've charged so far for a book is a bit over £600, and usually it's more like £300 to £450 depending on length."

It also clearly depends on what you want: do you want an idea of how it's going and who to pitch it to - an experienced professional with even a cursory read could be very helpful - or do you want every hanging participle cut down and resucitated?

Emma

Emma,

i've noticed that the Writers Workshop doesn't quote for 'synopsis and first 50 pages' like the other sites - does this mean that they prefer to assess full lenght manuscripts if it's a novel?

I'm 40,000 words into mine and am considering getting it assessed before i finish.

Casey

I'm treading cautiously here, because I don't want to sound as if I'm advertising them, and because I've only just signed up and haven't done a report for them yet. But I think they feel that it's hard to comment really helpfully on so much - plot, character development, structure - if they can't read the whole thing.

Emma

Gaius - you're absolutely right that a critique of the first 50 pages can only tell you what's wrong (or right!) with your writing, although if you send them the synopsis as well I suppose they could point out any glaring problems with the plot!

You've just reminded me of something I meant to say earlier - that you need to be really clear in your own mind what it is you want to get out of the critique, and that you should make this clear to whoever you get to critique it. In my case, I don't have any real concerns about my plot but I do know that I have a really bad tendency to slip into the old telling-not-showing trap. It was useful to have concrete examples of when I'd done this pointed out, because then I could go through the rest of the book looking for passages where I'd done similar things. (And yes, I know this is ridiculously basic and I should have been able to spot this myself, but you know how it is when you're too close to something!)

usually it's more like £300 to £450 depending on length

So Golgonooza's £65+VAT is WAY off. Even at a tenner an hour, I wouldn't be able to read my own MS at a cursory level!

an experienced professional with even a cursory read could be very helpful

Yes, but...
Even a cursory read of a full-length novel is a serious undertaking in terms of time. If I pay for that, I may as well pay for the analysis too - not the grammar / participle stuff (that I can get from Strunk & White or The Little, Brown Handbook) but the bits that make a novel more than just prose.

uses the Word editing facilities to do it on screen, so would charge about £1500 for a book

Luddite!

Alright, even though I work with computers for a living, I can admit that paper and pen is quicker, more satisfying, more human, better in almost every way and ... also a shameful waste of paper, trees, the environment and an offence against all that is politically correct. It bugs me that so few publishers accept e-mail submissions, but I grudgingly accept it has its purpose for edit.

<Added>

I think they feel that it's hard to comment really helpfully on so much - plot, character development, structure - if they can't read the whole thing

And they're still on my shortlist because I know they are right. :)

<Added>

(And yes, I know this is ridiculously basic and I should have been able to spot this myself, but you know how it is when you're too close to something!)

If I wasn't that way too, I would never have completed the first draft! Can you imagine writing a rough draft if you could see how shite it was from the first sentence?

Gaius,
procrastinate much?

As for posting on here and getting some feedback from other WW-ers, well they aren't looking to make any money from you- just to offer you support.
The fact that anything you post here can be restricted to a group or to this site, and will be dated and archived to your name protects the copyright issue.


I'd say, if you are confident your book is marketable then submit it to an agent or publisher.

procrastinate much?

Only when I have something really important to avoid.

Seriously, I take the points about WW and I thoroughly intend to use it to hone my skills. Not for this though, and not because I'm worried about people stealing the ideas, but because I don't think it is an appropriate forum for what I want in this instance.

Fair enough.

I accept I might be exceptionally naive about this site.

So Golgonooza's £65+VAT is WAY off.

As I said, they restrict their reviewing to the first 25,000 words.

So they’re not that cheap, but the point I was making is that they only review 25,000 and there’s no option for them to read the full ms.

A friend of mine has sent her ms to Hilary Johnson and is expecting their report any day now. If she doesn’t object, I’ll let you know what she thinks.

Dee

Lola, you're not being naïve. This site has helped god knows how many budding writers, and the peer feedback is a huge part of it.

Dee

Hi Gaius,

Your thread has pushed me to get some feedback on my work from Cornerstones, something i have been thinking about.

I queried them by email and was sent back some useful information. They suggested that i send them a rough synopsis and the first chapter (no charge) and they'll see from that if they can help me - in otherwords whether my writing's anywhere near decent at the moment, i suppose!

Also, they said they would definitely like to speak to me on the phone - something i'm a bit nervous about, i've never discussed my work at a professional level before!

Obviously they are trying to attract business, but they seem very sincere to me, with a genuine interest in writers.

If you want, i'll let you know how i get on.

Cheers,

Casey

Hi Casey,
Yes, I would be very interested to know how you get on. It sounds like they are taking a very sensible approach to it all and I wouldn't worry about discussing your novel - nobody else can possibly know your work as well as you do! If you're anything like me, you'll find the problem is shutting up about it once they get you started...
Cheers,
Gaius

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Hi Lola,
Dee's right about the website too, it's more likely to be me wanting too much control than it is you being naïve. Either way, it's a personal decision on what you think you a) need and b) can get from the different resources.
BTW, saw on another thread that you had interest from an agent in Dublin, hope that goes well for you.
Gaius

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Hi Dee,
Point taken about Golgonooza, still not what I'm looking for, however! Again, I'd be very interested to hear your friend's feedback on Hilary Johnson - I formed a very strong mental picture of her from her website, I imagine she can be quite intimidating when she sets her mind to it...
Gaius

One of the thinks that most impressed me when listening to Hilary Johnson was that she knows a lot about what makes a book sellable to a publisher, and about how writers feel about their work, and is very sensitive to the gap between the two. If she's intimidating, I'd be surprised if it was towards an aspiring writer.

Emma

Hi,

I have sent my synposis and first three chapters to Hilary Johnson and I have corresponded with her by e-mail. She is lovely and encouraging and not the least bit intimidating. I asked her to have a look by e-mail and told her my problems and she asked me to send it in. She then sent an acknowledgement that she had recieved it and had sent it to a suitable reader. That was just at the beginning of the week so I'll let you know. I just asked for an impression of my storyline and to pick out in my writing what needed to be improved. It is a young adult novel and for this she charged £90. I don't know if there's different rates for other requests but I wasnt looking for an in depth analysis - just an overview of it's marketability.
I'll let you know how I get on.

Eve.