Supposing that I wanted good editorial advice for a full manuscript but that I wasn't crazy about the idea of uploading my pride and joy to a website ... um ... a bit like ... well, you get the gist.

It's just not something I'm comfortable with for any number of reasons; beginning with the fact that there doesn't seem to be any way to take stuff down again once I see what's wrong with it, and finishing somewhere around accusations of my being a paranoid control freak.

The question is, has anybody tried any of the paid editorial services?

If so, are there any you would specifically recommend?

Or any that you would specifically _not_ recommend?

My preference, of course, is somebody I can actually _meet_ in the flesh, so if anyone knows anyone around the Dublin area, so much the better...

And finally, as there are so many types of editing:

I don't give a damn about copy-editing at this stage - I am consistent, so if I am consistently wrong I can fix it easily ... later, much later.

What I want is a full reading with comments on whether the story works / comes across the way I intend. Also someone who can point out the areas where I am being lazy.

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ps: Also, I know different editors are good at different genres. Still working out what I am, but the storyline is a dark story of personal growth with some political overtones and (to me at least) uncomfortable moral dilemmas.

It's fairly straight forward to remove work from this site - people do it all the time, but if you get comments, especially useful ones, then the decent thing is to leave it up, at least for a short while.

Thanks, I will check it out and try to use it for some of my experiments.

That said, I'm still not comfortable with uploading work that I consider commercially viable to a public (albeit membership subscription) website. There is also the practical issue of some poor sod having to read through a 120K novel from a browser...

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ps: I know I could break it up into key sections for review, but I am looking for the overall effect of the novel. Something that writing taken out of context can't (IMHO) provide.

Hi Gaius,

I looked into this last year with my first novel. I never actually did anything about it but may pursue it this time round.

Have a look at Writers'services.com - it's quite a useful site and they offer editorial services - anything from a straightforward reader's report to an editor's one. Of course, i can't personally recommend these from experience, but i might be tempted next time.

Another one i remember researching is something like Golgonooza ?? I can't find it now, maybe someone else can refresh my memory.

As you probably know, there's a section in the WAAYB on editorial services agencies.

I have started uploading sections of my work - not necessarily chronologically and not necessarily bits essential to the plot - but the comments i've received have certainly helped my writing as a whole.

Casey

Can't recommend Golganooza. The site looks a bit moribund, (nothing in the forums since April) and they restrict their reviewing to the first 25,000 words.

Dee

Thanks Casey,

As you probably know, there's a section in the WAAYB on editorial services agencies.

No, actually I am notoriously bad at exploring the resources available to me unprompted - I'll flick through it now.

the comments i've received have certainly helped my writing as a whole

I know, and I know it is just prejudice on my part, one that I'll no doubt overcome one day. The thing is, I'm a bit old-fashioned and I like to meet the people who have given me feedback. From my tech writing days, I know that even the simplest edits benefit from discussion / clarification.

Anyway, I'll check out those links and see what I can find.

Cheers,

Gaius

I think the Literary Consultancy are the tops. Brilliant stuff - they've always helped me huge amounts. And if it's children's fiction, then Cornerstones are supposed to be good.

Have fun!

A
xxx

Yes, i seem to remember researching and constantly coming across recommendations for the Literary Consultancy, it seemed to be highly respected.

let us know, won't you Gaius, if you do use any of these services, and how useful you found them?

Casey

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I'm interested, Holly, do you only use them when you have completed your final edit or would you ever submit your first few chapters for assessment, before having finished the whole thing?

I got The Literary Consultancy to critique the synopsis and the beginning of my novel (I think it was the first 50 pages). I think it cost £150, although this was about a year ago. It was definitely money well spent, but I was a little irritated when I Googled the name of the person who'd written the report and discovered that, while they did work for a literary agent, they weren't themselves an agent - their job was in admin. I felt a bit conned, since TLC seemed to be promoting itself on the fact that the people writing the reports had lots of publishing experience. While the comments were VERY useful, I did feel that any reasonably literate reader could probably have provided advice that would have been just as helpful.

Also, I didn't submit my work until I'd spent a lot of time polishing it, which was a mistake - I think I would have received the same comments had I submitted an earler draft and I wouldn't have been quite so sick of the bloody thing then!

I've heard very good things of Hilary Johnson, especially from people who are fairly market-oriented, and I've heard her speak and was impressed, though of course you don't usually get her herself. Mixed of Cornerstones from brilliant to - um - not, good of The Literary Consultancy. It is a bit like asking people about schools, though: it's worth finding out where the writer's coming from while you listen to their view.

And can I put in a interest-admitting word for these guys?:
http://www.writersworkshop.co.uk/

All their people are published writers, including most recently me, so if you don't want an editorial admin person, perhaps they're worth a try.

Emma

I tend to send TLC the whole thing when I "think" it's somewhere near ready - and after I've dealt with their report, it's always much nearer that longed-for state!

I've particularly found Marsha Rowe to be very good - both for my lighter-hearted stuff and the dark stuff too, if that's any help.

A

Wow! I should turn off my computer more often!

Thanks everybody for your input, I have a lot to go on there.

Cheers,

Gaius

Gaius
I'm surprised anyone has heard anything negative about Cornerstones, because I have found them to be absolutely brilliant. They do adult fiction as well as children's and I can thoroughly recommend them. As well as getting a professional view on your work, they're also very supportive afterwards. Do some good courses too. Here's the link, if you're interested.

http://www.cornerstones.co.uk/index.htm


And good luck, whatever you do!

Ach! Yegads, tis an abomination on the net of Inter.

[url=www.writersservices.com]Writer's services[/url] is just about the worst website I've seen since ... well, if I'm honest, since yesterday when I saw one or two of the agent's place-holder sites ... but it is still pretty appalling and I hadn't seen a worse one for several months prior to that (the last time I scanned through agency sites...).

They offer a compelling description but no real detail of what you get and I noticed their homepage is copyright June 2001... The price (£100 standard, £110 for a novel as big as mine) implies that you don't get a lot for your money (not sure on hourly rates in this industry, but it takes me more than a day to read...). Has anybody used these guys at all?

Golgonooza has a better site, but again copyright statement is 2002. (Do they really still qualify as a "new" company?) That said, they do a (suspiciously) good line in testimonials, starting with:

When I started up The Ampersand Agency in the summer of 2003, I'd read about Golgonooza and took a look at the site.

Then I got a bit more cynical and although I liked the fact that they were confident enough to provide sample reviews, when you read them, they are a bit cheesy / soft-soapy. Given the ridiculously low, standard price I can't honestly believe they will be able to put in enough time to give me what I need - even paying somebody less than my cleaner they wouldn't have time to finish the novel, let alone give me decent feedback. Gut feeling is that they don't suit me.

The Literary Consultancy also have a professional looking site (albeit built using techniques that are not recommended... not that any of you care about that as this a writing forum rather than a developer forum).

They won me over almost instantly with:

Clients are also free to contact the office with any questions at any stage, either regarding their critique or the publishing industry as a whole.

Given the good mentions below, I'd say they are high up on my short list from what has been posted. However... they are expensive (looking at the guts of £600 for a review), don't have sample reports on the website and require a printed copy.

I also checked out The Writer's Workshop. Clean and functional, if conservative, website. Impressively long list of editors and the sample reviews are ... well, I'd like to get a review as detailed as that. Price is realistic at about £380 for a 300 pager or closer to £455 for mine.

Paranoid tremors about Emma reading my pride and joy aside, they would be high up on my shortlist...

Still a couple of other links to check out and one or two freelancers who have contacted me in response to this thread.

Cheers,

Gaius

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ps: The literary consultancy price is based on a novel my size. It is £300 for the first 200 pages.

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pps: Also had a look at Cornerstones.
No sample reports, but a professional look and feel and a realistic £3.50 per 1000 word report cost. It was frustrating not to see sample reports, but I've had a couple of favourable comments on them, so I'll add them to the shortlist also.

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Hilary Johnson looks to me to be a very compelling option. She has no prices on the site, but the workflow she describes and the tone of her website gives her instant credibility that is backed up by Emma's comments above. I like.

I'd have a think about whether you really need them to critique the whole novel. I found that I could apply most of the comments I got on my first 50 pages to the rest of the book. Maybe you could start by just getting a critique of the opening chapters and seeing how helpful you find that before paying for a report on the whole book. I know TLC offer a discount if you go back to them to get a report on the rest of the novel, so I presume other places do something similar.