I don't know if anybody's heard of this site, http://www.unmadeup.com - it's supposed to be 'true stories by real people'.

Anyhow, I've got a little piece up there. I suppose you could call it creative non-fiction. It happened yesterday. I wrote it this morning. He put it on the site by lunchtime.

Non-paying, I'm afraid.

Roger
Just had a quick read (am in a horribly prevaricatory mood today...if there is such a word!)and this chilled me to the bone. For a start, people who let their evil, slavering beasts jump up and terrify my children in the park make me see red (I don't mean all dogs - just the mean ones. I'm actually a dog-liker, if not lover) but then the casual brutality towards the dog and the little brother was also very upsetting. Where was this, if you don't me asking - Highgate Woods? Heath? It's such a horrible, helpless feeling when your children witness what horrible people there are in the world!

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ARGHH - so many 'horribles'!!

Caroline, it was in a park near where we live called Priory Park. This kind of thing doesn't normally happen there. I felt useless looking on at all this. I felt I should have confronted the dog-man, but I suppose cowardice intervened, though honestly I think it would have been madness to have taken on those blokes. They did not look like the sort of men who talk things over sensibly. It would have got shouty and violent quite quickly I feel. As for the teenagers, well, that was sad to see too. I don't think the younger brother was actually hurt, at all, it was rough-house play. It was just the sense you had that this was how his brother treats him all the time. And that it was nasty rather than fun.

Well Roger;

As a piece of FICTION, the callous savagery visited on the dog and later on the brother would have made me cringe and stop reading.

As a piece of real life brutality viewed by yourself and your children, I would have done exactly the same as you. It is hard to tell who the animals are!

Having been in a somewhat similar situation a while ago, (teenager being attacked - not a dog and no children involved), I wholeheartedly agree and applaud your decision to put your children first. My friend and I acted on instinct (we only had ourselves to protect) and whilst the teenager in trouble escaped we were left facing a large number of very aggressive, armed youths (most of whom had joined the "fun" due to contact via mobiles - well after the actual incident)

Unfortunately, intervention can often lead to the use of such weapons and subsequent tragedy. We were very lucky. I also later found out who the ring leader was (small town, tight community where word gets around pretty fast) and had a quiet word with him on his own. It really is amazing how pathetic bullies and gang mentality cretins are when not running with the herd.

Now I'm a parent my children would definitely come first. It may still be worthwhile calling the RSPCA and informing them as they may look out for these louts in the future.

Good writing - horrible, horrible situation for you.

Kev.

More and more, recently, I find myself openly saying "I fucking hate this country."

I really am completely sick of having to live here. For instance today, less than an hour ago, I was on the train home listening to a group of five teenage boys openly brag about robbing people. This wasn't on an empty train either, but there they were boasting as if it was something to be proud of.

Sadly this isn't a one off incident. I increasingly find myself disgusted with the state of this country.

I feel really tempted to rant here, but I won't. I just wondered if anyone felt the same way.

Geoff

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Sorry Roger, I got so het up I forgot what I writing.

As tempted as we might be to 'have a go' I think you did the right thing especially with the kids being there.

No amount of reasoning or discussion will ever change the attitudes of people like that.

As an aside I was recently doing a technical refresher course on the e-OASYS (an offender assessment document) and we got into a discussion about research that shows people who demonstrate violence against animals tend to be more violent and aggressive towards people.

And in which other countries do you think it's any better Geoff?

No, I don't feel that way at all. I don't know how old you are Geoff but I'm old enough to recall bullying, violence and robbery from the 70s and well read enough to know that such things are common throughout the history of the UK and the developed and undeveloped worlds.

In your (and Roger's) particular cases you've been a first hand witness to such events which makes it all the more painful but the views of many other people are, in my opinion, too heavily coloured by the media and based upon some utopian ideal that apparently existed at some time in the past.

To be brutally honest, I'm probably about as sick of hearing people complain about the 'state of this country' as you are of being in it (if that makes any sense). I've had first hand experience of other regimes and locales and sleep peacefully here at night, something I couldn't say of many other places I've been.

Jon

Hi Jon,

I agree with you that there are a great many countries that are far worse than ours, but that doesn't dissuade me from my point.

I have always had a problem with the general standards of this country, but I think I've finally reached my breaking point.

Like you I I don't believe in any notion of a golden age, I don't believe that it was better in the olden days. And although this may sound somewhat contradictory I do think, in some respects it's getting worse.

Fortunately as far as the media is concerned I don't have to rely on what I hear through them as I work for the probation service which gives me a pretty good handle on that situation.

But crime is only one part of why I hate this country. Indeed I could write volumes about many things issues I have. But for me two of the main reasons are our arrogance and complete lack of standards.

We simply don't have any standards in this country. Whether we're talking about customer service or train timetables. We lack standards in social etiquette and personal conduct. Across the board in every area you care to name most problems boil down to a lack of standards.

Now as for your question about which country I would choose my answer is Japan. Having recently spent a month there I have had my eyes opened.

Now from the outset I will say Japan is not a perfect country, like every country it has its share of problems, but the standard of living there is far superior to our own.

I guess it's at this point that I should also state that I have for some time been a fan of Japanese culture and for many years I had put off visiting the country itself for fear of having my perception corrupted by the reality. But after spending the whole of April travelling there I can tell you that it literally just blew my mind.

Of course there are all the things you hear about, like the ultra efficient trains that arrive on time so precisely that you can set your watches by them (and I was amazed to find this true of the buses too) to the immaculate customer service. Now even I agree that these things are trivial in the overall scheme of things but in a very real sense they still count.

But what really got me about Japan was the people. Never have I experienced such warmth and generosity as I did whilst there.

I'm planning to write up my experiences and hopefully post them up on here shortly but some of the many things that struck me were

The fact that the young actually seem to respect their elders. I can't tell you how many times I witnessed school children and teenagers on buses and trains freely talking with other elderley passengers who were not their direct relations.

On many occasions I got to experience this as hundreds of ultra polite school children approached me to ask if they could practice their english.

One of my fondest memories is of being caught in thunderstorm whilst walking back from Todaiji temple (in the small town of Nara, just outside Kyoto). Having no umbrella of my own I found to my utter amazement that whenever I stopped a at traffic crossing that elderly women would hold their umbrellas over my head.

Everywhere I went I found the same thing, kindness and generosity. The same attention to detail, the same high standards. I simply couldn't believe that any country could be so much better than our own and since returning to the UK I can't help but feel that we live in squalor in comparison. Yet whenever I tell people of my experiences they all seem to share the same attitude. The Japanese? How can Japanese people have it better than us? Many in such a way that they seem to believe that Britain is inherently better than Japan.

I have a number of friends who have said this of other countries like Canada, New Zealand and various scandinavian countries, and they too have found this British arrogance when they talk of their own experiences. It really makes me sick.

Geoff



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hope that all makes sense I think I slipped into rant mode there

Rog, that's horrible. Disgusting. Whenever I see or hear anythign like this, I just think to myself: karma. What goes around comes around, and people like that deserve it to.

Nik.

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anything!

Roger, thanks very much for sharing this experience. You weren't a coward, don't be daft, any of us with a child to look afer would have done the same. I have some bad memories of times in the park (Stratford and West Ham) with my son (also Luke)going back to the mid-80s. Bad memories of dogs outside parks too, although I've nothing against dogs - but owners, well .... I remember in the little kids' enclosure (NO DOGS) a moron with a DOG and his own kid. Didn't listen to reason, he could do what he liked, no-one was going to tell him blah blah - so I gave up. I sat and watched him push his child in a swing, and then the dog came in front of the swing and edged closer until the swing smacked it on the head. A 'seeing stars' moment for the dog.
'I've told you not to get so close,' said the man, aiming a kick at the dog.
The things we say to dogs, eh?
Anyway, I hope you're feeling more settled now. This sort of thing can really shake you up.

Best wishes

Jim

John and Geoff,

Content Warning - if you are of a broadly liberal view you will not appreciate my ranting!!!!

I've lived in a small town outside Manchester all my natural born. It seems to me that over the last 10 years, general standards have decreased whether that be service levels, violence, litter, politeness etc. These things can be seen everyday on the bus, train.....

The intense and competitive media industry thrive on pain and negativity, bringing violence, death, terrorism straight into our living rooms (I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing - we need to be able to develop informed views about our own country and the rest of this ever shrinking world). 30 years ago similar standards/incidents may well have happened but, most people trundled through life unaware and/or unaffected by them.

Is the media to blame? I would say not. To my mind, this country needs a big slap in the face. Yes parents have a massive role to play but so do lots of organisations from the government down. It seems to me that successive governments have failed this country by allowing yob mentality/culture to thrive. How have they allowed this? by chopping the legs from under the schooling system, the police, the courts - I could go on.

Until there is a massive sea change in this country I fear it will only continue to deteriorate.

My seemingly non-liberal views will probably spark outrage on this site but what the heck. I'd immediately reintroduce National Service for all 18 year olds who are not in full-time employment or full-time eduction. This would be for a period of 2 years and would be in noncombatant (unless the individual was a. already intending to join up or b. expressed a wish to take a full role - when joining up.) roles - I know inflammatory views.

How would this help?

1. Take the gangs off the street.
2. Instill discipline and respect
3. Reduce crime / drug abuse
4. Provide opportunity for excellent vocational training.
5. Opportunity, opportunity, opportunity... to climb out from the social strife most of these youngsters find themselves in.
6. Alert the next generation to the possibility that learning, striving for an education and taking control of their own lives maybe better than giving it to the government for 2 years.

Negatives - loss of civil liberty - Ok then stay on the streets, mug old ladies, get drunk on cider, TWOKing, attacking ambulances and the fire-brigade, smoking the crack you mugged the old lady for!!!!!

I would then go on to look at the causes and try to find the solutions to school reform, social reform the welfare state etc. It's the underlying problems which are never tackled. Each successive government look for a quick political fix instead of sticking their necks out and trying to actually cure the cause.

Kids of today need structure (I see it with my own children who are brought up in a loving and caring environment), discipline and opportunity to fulfill their potential. If we, as a country, don't realise their potential in another 10 -20 years we will become the toilet of Europe.

Rant over.

Kev.

Thanks everyone for commenting. Seems I started a debate. Hmmm. When you see something like this happen it does call into question all your liberal values I suppose. It also brings you face-to-face with your real self, as well, somehow. Kev, it sounds like the situation you had to deal with was far more threatening than this.

Roger,

At the time and in the heat of the moment, we didn't recognise the potential seriousness of the threat. Trying to do a good dead and all that. My wife (who was my girlfriend then) tore a strip off me for getting involved and made me promise never to do it again.

Sadly, I don't think that I would, which in itself is an indictment on the deterioration of our society.

Kev.

<Added>

I'd just like to temper my previous ranting slightly and say that; I know a lot of great kids and teenagers who work hard, are respectful and have bright and promising futures. These kids tend to come from reasonably well-off homes, go to good schools and are given lots of opportunities.

It is kids/children/teenagers who don't have the right role models, who have been let down by the government and who can't see a way out of their; peer pressure induced lives, that we must strive to help.

These individuals make up a vast tranche of our natural resources. Lets face it we've given away our oil, our manufacturing industry, our coal and steel (OH I'm into rant mode again;) If we give up on these kids we are doomed.

I don't have all the answers and don't pretend to. I just hope somebody out there does.

Geoff, thanks for commenting in a much more reasonable manner than I did! I'd had a longish and fairly loud disagreement with an associate the night before and the rant toggle hadn't been switched off.

It's odd that you mention Japan, it's perhaps one of the very few countries that I could consider as an alternative home but Japan does also have very real problems of it's own - as you've said yourself.

What really, really irritates me is when the 'golden age' argument is trotted out. When people you meet go all misty eyed about some mythical era in Britain's past when everyone wore hats and all the police had to do was tell the time. I have a friend (and I use the term loosely, rather regretably) who consistently rants about how terrible things are 'these days' but cannot provide specific examples of a time that was better. He carries in his head some sort of Victorian/Edwardian/fictional ideal Britain that in fact never existed and his arguments and policies demand a return to that place. That he's a fairly committed racist makes the process that much harder to listen to.

I won't comment any more on this thread because it's a subject that not only gets my goat but takes it for a walk and I'll probably end up offending someone

Jon

I can understand the views of everybody in this thread. My dad (60 years old and limping) was assaulted by a man and his girlfriend after he asked them to put their dog on a lead. And one of the buses I can get home is a magnet for young kids boasting about armed robberies and even murder - much of which I take with a pinch of salt.

But I can't think of any country that would be relatively better as opposed to just different. Scratch the surface and there's problems everywhere, as others have commented. In particular, Japan would not be an option for me, simply because I am a woman. Japanese society is deeply chauvinistic - huge glass ceilings for working women. Anybody thinking of going there should probably have a wife who doesn't care about working too much. Or getting her arse pinched on the subway.

And no, I don't believe in a golden age either. In the past, society may have been relatively better mannered (you could always leave your door open, etc) but child abuse, spousal abuse, mental illness etc were always swept under the carpet or worse and nobody was free to be gay or atheist or different in any way. How many people were totally emotionally or spiritually repressed without even the means to express this?

Society has moved on because people themselves started to move on from feeling that they had to follow the 'norm' and all that entailed. Unfortunately, the fallout from this is that every oik in the street feels obliged to express themselves, even when they don't have the skills to do it in an acceptable way. I think all we can do is learn how to stay balanced about it all. This doesn't mean rolling over and taking crap from everybody but it may mean making choices to avoid getting beaten up.

S

Thanks Roger... for putting up such a great piece. I'm impressed that it stirred up such a hornet's nest but I think that' something to do with it being so well written. It wasn't written as an editorial... just as a well-observed slice of life, and that, I think makes it all the more powerful.

If anyone else out there wants to contribute to the site, please do.