Are there any agents out there even looking at first-timers synopses and chapters? All I keep getting back is standard letters saying no or not taking any new writers on, accompanying my three chapters that are still in pristine condition... as if they hadn't even been flicked through.

Some times I think writing my book was the easiest bit.

Hey strangefish, there are agents who specialise in breaking new authors - you need to target them. There's no harm in phoning an agent first to check whether they're taking on new clients. Check the acknowledgement pages of first novels for tips. Keep a look out on Bookseller.com for the agents who are selling first novelists. Jonny Geller of Curtis Brown is arguably the most famous of the bunch - why not try him? If you do though, you'll need to make sure the application is highly personalised. Good luck.

Cheers Traveller,

Synopsis and 3 are with Curtis Brown at the mo. Haven't heard anything back yet, but holding out hope.

Strangefish, check out the WW interview with Simon Trewin at PFD and Mike Smith at Annette Green. And have a look at the agents listed in the WW Directory - there's good feedback on some about their willingness or otherwise.

It's a long, hard and chancy road, I'm afraid, which isn't meant to be depressing, but to encourage you not to be discouraged by rejections, but to keep going, while being realistic. According to Jonathan Lloyd, Curtis Brown get something like 600 scripts a week. But things do get looked at; yes, on the one hand, they're swamped, on the other hand they're terrified of missing the next Dan Brown/Zadie Smith/Mark Haddon.

Don't forget there's nothing to stop you submitting direct to publishers, though more and more of the big boys don't accept un-agented submissions. But they take even longer to get back to you, and are even less likely to be interested in something that still needs a tweak or two.

If you get any rejections more personalised or detailed than 'we're full' or 'sorry not for us' then pat yourself on the back that you're in the top 5% of submissions. If more than one of those seem to be saying the same kind of thing about your work, it might be time to have a long hard look at it and see if you think they've got a point.

Good luck!
Emma

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It may not be true for your, but in the interests of morale, I find it better to send out a load of submissions at once than have my hopes pinned for weeks on a single one. I think my record was 10. The first one coming back isn't too depressing because there are lots still out there, and by the time the last one comes back I'm well into a new project.

Hi Strangefish,

I'm afraid the standard 'We're not taking on any new writers' is often a poor excuse for not having time to give you a genuine reason why they won't be taking you on, but I think it's fair to say that no agent is opposed to taking on a new author if they feel the book is marketable - it's their definitions of marketable that we need to crack (and, sadly, sometimes when you find out what they really want, you don't want to give it to them).

You need to make your submission stand out in the first place - not just in the standard of your writing / the unique nature of your idea, but something in your letter that's going to make them really read it, instead of flick one eye over it casually with the other eye on the standard rejection slip.

Getting somewhere in a competition or having something published in a magazine is a good start - just something to show that this isn't your first toe in the water.

I think the covering letter is really overlooked when we talk about submitting material - it should be thought of as a piece of writing in itself, and it's just not enough to be 'polite' or 'correct', you have to dazzle.

I wish you luck.

Myrtle

Hello Strangefish,

I'm brand new to this game. Started writing my children's novel mid Jan.

I looked on the Bloomsbury.com - Writers almanac website where, there is a load of information with regard to submissions etc.

My method (maybe right or wrong?) is to send a covering letter and snappy synopsis only (saves on postage). I initially wrote to five agents (agents who are interested in my sphere of writing; it is very important that you target the right agents.) I've since had 4 rejections and one interested (Curtis Brown coincidentally).

When Curtis wrote back asking to see the first three chapters of my book, the letter was signed by the agent. I took this opportunity to ring the agent directly (who took my call!!!) After a five minute chat I found out exactly how the agent liked the work to be set out; font type; spacing etc.

The first three chapters have been with Curtis Brown for 4 weeks and I'm still waiting. The mistake I may have made is that I've only written five chapters of what is to be a 25 chapter book (and I've not informed the agent?), I didn't think that I'd get this far this quick.

Not sure that my approach is the right one but I've had some limited success, up to now.

Kev.

Hi Kev,

If I were you I'd get writing...quick! I made this mistake a few years ago - got a request for a full ms (amazingly, from Curtis Brown!) and didn't have a full one to give. Missed opportunity. However late last year I managed to get an agent with an unfinished ms (and some finished picture books) but she knew from the start that the ms was incomplete (I only sent it to show her my range, if you see what I mean). It's tempting to send stuff out before it's finished, just for some feedback, but that's what this place is for.

Myrtle

Hi Myrtle,

Having surfed masses of sites I thought it would take me forever to generate any interest, if i ever did; so I decided to start the process early.

Now I've hit a block one page into chapter six. Where before the words flowed in a torrent, a dribble now exists.

I've had a little break from it this week and will see if that's helped over the weekend.

The feedback from the children's group has been fantastic, insightful and really useful.

Glad I joined.

Kev.

It's tempting to send stuff out before it's finished, just for some feedback

This is so true, and such a mistake, though it's an understandably thing to do in the excitement of creating something. To be brutally honest, I think it's setting yourself up to fail. To get interest based on something unfinished is a huge boost, (so big congrats to anyone who has) but it's terribly rare, and the chances are all you'll get is a 'do get in touch when it's finished', not an agency contract. And before you do finish it, said agent can die/move on/change their idea about the market by the time you've finished it.

And usually, it doesn't work at all. Agents looking at submissions have two piles - a tiny 'very promising' pile and a huge 'reject' pile. They don't have a 'promising but needs developing pile'. You only get one shot at each agent, so you don't want to send anything except your absolutely best work, and how can you know it is your best - as good as it can possibly be, better than you dreamt it could be when you started it - when you haven't finished the whole thing? I 'finished' TMOL at least four times, and still ended up almost completely re-writing the first page after the bound proofs had been printed! Finally, if an agent's expressed interest, the temptation for you is to get the rest to them as fast as possible, rather than leaving it in a drawer, and then revising it several times, and all the other patience-needing processes that will make it a really good book that publishers will want, and people will buy, and buy more, and want your next one.

I know that lots of how-to books suggest that you try to get a deal based on synopsis and samples, and I've been wondering why, because my experience is that agents won't be interested in anything except a finished book.

I think that it may be a difference between genre fiction, and fiction that's trying to be more original (or 'literary', if you must). With a mass-market thriller, if the idea in the intro letter is a killer, the synopsis shows you've developed it into a substantial plot, and the sample chapter shows you can write adequately for the purpose, that may be enough. With a novel which depends more on subtleties of characterisation, really exciting writing, the exploration of complicated and original ideas, or sophisticated plot-structuring or patterns of images, how is an agent to know all these things work, except by reading the whole thing?

Emma

Emma, when referring to 'The Mathematics of Love' you write: "I 'finished' TMOL at least four times, and still ended up almost completely re-writing the first page after the bound proofs had been printed!"

That surprised me - not the rewriting in itself; God knows how many time we rewrite the first page before we even submit - but so late in the day. Do you care to say a few words about why?

Jim (impressed!)

It was mainly a complicated question of what characters were introduced when, and that the situation wasn't quite clear enough (difficult to explain without re-running the plot!). I was happy with the previous version, but was quite prepared to work it over for readers who hadn't been living with the book for several years. Interestingly, my American editor felt the same, and was pleased to know that I'd already done the work she was about to ask me to do!

First pages are buggers - there's so much to set up, and such a terror of it being an info-dump or just horribly creaky. It certainly wasn't something they did lightly, as the bound proofs have the old version, which isn't ideal.

Joe, if Diana Athill turned yours down in the 90s, that must mean it's been in gestation a long time. Was that continuous, or is it something you left and came back to?

Emma

The temptation to send work out too early is strong but it should be resisted. I spent eighteen months writing and polishing my novel before I considered it suitable to send out. Since then I have edited it at least three times. I wouldn’t dream of sending anything out at the first draft stage.

Kev, you’ve done well to get to speak to an agent. That puts your name in his mind, so he’ll be more inclined to read your sample chapters. However, I can almost guarantee that, if he likes it enough to want the full ms, he’ll want it immediately. If I were you I’d put this down to experience and move on. Finish the first draft and then rewrite it, edit it, polish it, nurture it, give it the attention it deserves.

Strangefish, have you thought about going somewhere like the Winchester Conference? It’s not cheap, but you can target suitable agents and have fifteen minutes to pitch your work to them across a little table. I did it in 2003, didn’t get an agent but the experience was well worth it.

Here’s a link. It looks like this year’s programme isn’t finalised yet, but you can bookmark it.

http://writers-conference.com/Index.html

or email Barbara.Large@winchester.ac.uk and ask her to send you details when they’re available.

Dee


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You need to take a thick skin and a box of tissues with you, though… some of them have terrifying reputations.

Emma, thanks for your perspective on the opening of TMOL.

With reference to my book you write: "if Diana Athill turned yours down in the 90s, that must mean it's been in gestation a long time. Was that continuous, or is it something you left and came back to?"

(With apologies to anyone who's heard bits of this before): Yes, I had a break from it for a long time. I stopped writing more or less, and spent my time learning to play the 5-string banjo in various styles. I became a bit of a banjo obsessive, even had lucid dreams where I learned pieces up and down the fingerboard. Got early warnings of RSI in my right-hand thumb.

Then I thought I'd put High John the Conqueror into a Word file, and in retyping, did a rewrite - mainly getting rid of overblown rhetorical flourishes and stripping it down. Then I sent it out again in 2003, and nothing, so I quit again. Then in 2004 I sent it out again and that was when it clicked, with literary agency Rogers, Coleridge and White picking it up (young intern on work experience with a good eye). They had a few general comments ... make the opening more reader-friendly, give the reader a few more 'steers'. And they were concerned about the tone of one section towards the end, so I did a complete re-imagining of that bit (I shifted from farce to mock-heroic, with a different plot strand altogether). I restored a chapter in the middle which I'd taken out years ago - but again, totally reimagined, the new one just had the same structural function as the old. The net effect was to add 10,000 words to the exent. I made it a better book, so I think timely editorial advice is invaluable. Nobody said: "you have to rewrite to the following specifications", they just gave me a few general grouses, and my imagination and true grit did the rest (ahem). Gill Coleridge then sold it to Dan Franklin at Cape.

And I've made a few tweaks at proof stage - a better word or phrase here and there. What I try to do is tighten the focus, so that the reader sees more clearly. I do this, like anyone would, by adding or subracting, or rearranging. It's not that easy, as we all know. I can rest content with a passage for years (having already rewritten it a zillion times) and then one day I look at it (with or without editorial intervention)and say: well, this just won't do, will it old bean? And off I go again. One of the difficulties is that often a slight change in one part of the book can mean a more substantial tweaking elsewhere. But we all know this, I guess, so I'll stop droning on.

I firmly intend not to let my banjo muse get the upper hand any more. Although so far today, I'm afraid I've been playing the fiddle rather than getting down to writing -but I had a late night session with the new novel, so a few hours off are allowed, I think.

Jim

make the opening more reader-friendly, give the reader a few more 'steers'. And they were concerned about the tone of one section towards the end, so I did a complete re-imagining of that bit... Nobody said: "you have to rewrite to the following specifications", they just gave me a few general grouses,

That's almost word-for-word what between them my agent and editor said to me, which is very interesting. I've long thought that, as the writer, in a sense I'm the worst possible person to be able to tell if I've given the right amount of information at the right time, or been too eliptical; it sounds like I'm not the only one.

And I, too, have found the typing-up stage a very valuable one; you see it as if new, which is so helpful.

Emma

Jim, what an interesting post. I was wondering how much help and advice you might get from an agent/publisher after acceptance. It's really good to know they will guide you if the MS is promising but could be improved.

And I groaned in empathy about your tweaking of one bit - only to find that led to necessary little tweaks all over the place! sometimes I feel it's like doing Rubik's cube - you change one side for the better but then despairingly find that all the others don't fit any more....