Alan, have you tried Critters? It has a very good reputation and is for serious online critiquers only. I don't think there's a charge for joining. Traditionally, it was just for spec. fiction writers but I recall seeing somewhere that it's now for any kind of writer.

http://critters.org/index.php

Yes, the question of expertise, when freely offered and not accepted, is vexing. If I had been in that group I would have bitten your hand off. But group dynamics is a strange thing, and people get quite inhibited; I think 'face' is something to do with it. Having lived in China a while, I am familiar with that particular inhibition.

Face could well be it. I can be a bit blind to this in that when I join a group or go to a convention my only aim is to find ways to improve my writing, make contacts, etc. But you're right, group dynamics are a strange thing. One member of the group I mentioned, now I think about it, probably saw himself as the 'best critiquer'. And he was good at it, but then again he hadn't got anything published, so perhaps his role is in fact holding him back. Or not, i.e. maybe the role is what he actually wants most.

I take the view that subscription sites should provide services that are needed. Else why charge?

I wouldn't argue with this. A charge has been made at WW historically, I guess, but we've never really been given a reason why.

That's really interesting AlanH and Astrea. As a relatively new arrival here, I kind of assumed people were swapping bits of writing with each other privately or in the groups. I'd seen the 'Introduce Your Work' section had a lot of tumbleweed rolling through.

It sounds as though it should be an essential element of the site to have at least, the possibility, of having ones work read - sympathetically.

Perhaps there should be an 'organ donor' option for people to volunteer to act as readers?
Personally, I'm not at a stage with my own work where I want to put it out there but I'm always interested in reading new writing. So I wouldn't want to literally 'swap' stuff but could give someone a few hours of 'close reading' time.
I wonder if people could indicate what work they're interested in reading, where they feel their strengths lie and where they might be able to give their best feedback.

For example, I think I can probably tell you whether a narrative is well written and of publishable quality but.... if that narrative was Mills & Boon for example, I wouldn't be able to tell you whether it conformed to the very specific genre requirements. Same with detective ficition or historical writing.
Good writing is good writing but certain genres have specific requirements for authors which just simply have to be there.

Lots of people on here may be magazine specialists or historical romance writers and if there was a space on the site to ask (for example):

Wanted: Four hours of experienced romance writer/reader - maybe that would be a good thing?

I've proposed a group here- which may or may not be what you're talking about guys, but if the wording's not right let's adjust it. (Btw, anyone can propose a group, and then publicise it in the forum until there's enough members to make it go live.) Am I right in thinking people would post in the group forum for what they need/will do eg. 70k chicklit MS needs whole read and crit, willing to do same for one other person in same genre? and would you then WWmail the person whose work you fancied critting, or just respond on the forum? is it something you'd then email to each other privately or post in the group in sections? do you post a brief/synopsis to entice a reader etc? and do you then agree a deadline with each other? The group would function on the site as a noticeboard and/or a messaging place, or would the critiquer post their response so that others in the group could see it?

http://www.writewords.org.uk/groups/proposed_groups.asp

I think it's a difficult problem, Alan. I would happily read your full MS if I had a full MS that needed reading in return - but I don't have a full work that needs reading, and don't know when I will have one.

I've read and critiqued quite a few full novels, and it's a lot of work. A lot. I think it only makes sense when it can be a reciprocal thing, and that's exactly why it's a problem.

could give someone a few hours of 'close reading' time.

This does go on in groups like Intensive Critique, of course, plus I know that individuals who've got to know each other in groups or elsewhere have done "private" swaps of whole novels.

But as Catkin has pointed out, reading and responding to a whole novel is a completely different order of time - which means it's easier to ask it of people if it can be reciprocal, but that only works if others have something at the right stage for a return match.

I also suspect that some people who would like a swap are shy of advertising (as it were) for one, if they feel it would be bad manners to turn down an offer from a reader they felt wasn't right for them, or whose work they really don't get on with.

But now the group is out there, let's hope it bears fruit.

Alan, have you tried Critters?

No, but then I've not been in this position before. My previous work was too flawed to be put out there, but I have more confidence with my wip.

Anyway, thanks, Terry, I'll take a look. Just before answering I saw Anna has proposed a new group. That's good.

I kind of assumed people were swapping bits of writing with each other privately or in the groups

Martin, we do, and it's enormously useful, but there is nothing for longer passages, or whole MSs. Getting details right is one thing, getting the big picture right is altogether different. If you've just written a first complete novel, how do you know if you've got it right, other than having reads by those qualified?
And family members and friends may not be either qualified, or honest.

Having read Sharley's link yesterday, I'm sure many writers don't know, and push their work out before it's really finished. And don't all agents say this, as well?

I won't do it.

I just hope Anna's new group gets off the ground and then flourishes.

<Added>

Martin, I just saw your remark about contributing a few hours to reading / critting. Perhaps you, and those who are similar-minded, could also join, and 'get back' your time and effort when you have work ready? Just an idea.

The IC group works on the principle of read-for-read, and by and large is successful. (I hope Andy and Diane will agree).

I think if it's 'compulsory' that in order to read someone else's work, you have to have some of your own work read, then the whole scheme will fizzle out. People just simply don't conveniently have large volumes of work ready for exchange at the same time as their proposed reader.

Would it not be more flexible simply to have a thread where people ask/offer for readers/reading and then decide individually to go ahead with anyone who responds say by private message - after that it's up to them - a bit like the classifieds in your local Newshopper.

Sometimes making these arrangements 'formalised' creates barriers to people getting what they want.

I would advocate people doing what they did on my MA course years ago and starting off with a very brief synopsis and say 5000 words-ish.

A good reader will know in 5000 words whether your work is publishable and that's probably more of a read than a prospective agent/publisher would give. Perhaps the reader could feedback with an overview and any major issues.

If, after that, the reader and readee!, are in agreement - they could go to a full MS or a more ongoing arrangement.

I think it's unrealistic to expect anyone to give 'Literary Consultancy' level feedback. Also, if people want grammar and typos checked (leaving aside odd rare oversights) then I would venture that they're maybe not ready enough to ask for this kind of feedback yet. They should be confident at that level already.

If I was looking for a reader, in an ideal scenario, I would hope to get someone who perhaps gave me an indication of the fiction they enjoy reading, told me whether they have any experience in critting and was willing to give me maybe 3-500 words (tops) back.
I'd hope for a quality of response which included whether they liked the piece or not, whether they wanted to read on, how the level of writing compared with published work, whether they considered it publishable, what they liked/didn't like - in other words a few paragraphs which were more than an agent would give but obviously less than a paid editor/consultant.

I would not want or expect sentence by sentence dissection. If the writing is good enough to require editorial input at that level, then it's better that comes from a publisher after you've got a deal!

After all, no reader wants to feel too res[ponsible for any changes the writer ends up incorporating in work which may still not succeed.

Wow - didn't intend to write that much!!! Time for a lie down.