A recently published friend posted this link to an post by Jane Friedman on How Long Should You Keep Trying to Get Published?

http://janefriedman.com/2012/12/29/how-long-to-get-published/

I think it is an interesting article, with some pertinent points.

Really good article ! Thanks for posting this.

Kirsty

Yes, that is a good post, isn't it. Very clear and sensible - thanks for that, Sharley.

Thanks, Sharley, I was encouraged by that. I honestly think I can tick most of the boxes, BUT, and it's a BIG BUT: On the main question of when are you ready to try getting published, and how do you know when you've reached that point, I am dithering. AND I wish this site was more proactive.

It (whole MS read-swapping) has been mooted before, and as far as I can see, nothing has been put forward. Okay, maybe the owners wish to keep things as they are at present - I don't know. I would like to know, because I may need to look elsewhere, which would be a shame given the wealth of talent here.

Normally, Alan, i think whole MS-swapping has been done on a very casual basis, between members who have got to know and trust each other within the groups. I guess it's just a matter of finding someone in your position, who writes in a similar genre and wants their MS reading too. Very frustrating for you, though, i agree, if you've mooted the idea and not had any luck with this.

Excellent piece, Sharley - although i'm still wondering what an Eeyore Complex is

although i'm still wondering what an Eeyore Complex is

It's the sort of chronically gloomy person who can't or won't see the good side of anything, and automatically assumes the worst.

though, i agree, if you've mooted the idea and not had any luck with this.

Actually, Petal, I take no credit for the mooting. It wasn't me - I was merely a supporter.

It (whole MS read-swapping) has been mooted before, and as far as I can see, nothing has been put forward.

I think Anna (?) said she was going to put together a proposal for a kind of match-making group, but nothing appeared. To be honest, I found the whole thread changed my attitude towards this site. I think there are lots of very nice people here, but I think it's basically a chatty drop-in centre for people who have been here a long time and share similar experiences. Therefore it's great if you want to chat about problems with your agent/ publisher / academic supervisor or if you have a very general question, but it's not so useful for people who have been writing seriously for a long time and want deeper involvement in the specifics of their writing.

I don't come here so often any more because it doesn't give me what I need at this stage of my writing life.

because I may need to look elsewhere,

I wish I could recommend somewhere suitable but unfortunately, I don't know of anywhere. I'd be interested if anyone knew of other sites that are serious about writing and not peopled with too many nutters?

<Added>

I hope my post doesn't seem as though I'm getting at anyone. I think it's just a matter of being in-step with the majority and I think the visible majority on this site already have a writing development network, either through agents/ publishers/ academic colleagues and therefore don't need it to function in that way. It's not a criticism, just a fact, a bit like getting divorced when all your friends are settling down and having babies - you have to accept that you no longer have much in common and probably need some new friends whose needs are closer to your own.

I think Anna (?) said she was going to put together a proposal for a kind of match-making group, but nothing appeared.

Yes, I think she did.

PROGRESS, PLEASE, ANNA?

I didn't read all of this article but what I did comes across to me like old-school, slow time reasoning. Yes, there are elements of truth in it but it's kind of stodgy and predictable. It's also full of assumptions presented as facts, e.g.:

There are many reasons writers choose to self-publish, but the most common one is the inability to land an agent or a traditional publisher.

How can she possibly know this? Later this year, for example, I'm going to self-publish a memoir. I've decided not to try trad publishers, simply because I believe I can find markets for it myself and thereby keep more of the profits, if it sells.

What she doesn't address is the question, "Why would you want to be traditionally published at all?" The pay is crap, you don't get much of the rights, your book won't be promoted, etc. Not only that, but to get your book considered at all means you're probably already compromising your vision, i.e. you've manufactured the story to fit the commerical needs of the publisher as far as you can.

The criticism of self-publishing tends to focus on all the crap that's produced in its name. But this ignores a) the crap that trad publishers put out and b) the fact that some self-publishing writers are actually putting out more interesting work, that they have control over.

Saturday, I understand what you're saying. For me, I found a lot more help after I actually admitted to myself that I needed it. Before that, because I'd had several books published, I didn't think there was much to learn. Maybe it's something to do with the nature of writing - you spend so much time on your own that it's perhaps only natural you come to believe (whatever you may say to the contrary) you're fine as you are - it's just the business that's at fault.

When I finally decided there was lots I still needed to learn, I had to go looking for it. This turned out to be mostly in the US. I found that in the UK, while individual writers are often helpful and generous with their time, we don't seem to have a culture of practical, challenging writing training, delivered either by people who are actually writing/publishing a lot and/or are trained in teaching/training/coaching.

Most writers' forums I'm involved with are as you describe this one: a place to share complaints, tips, etc. Often along with a lot of humblebragging. I think if you want more you probably have to make it yourself. Which I mean in a positive way!

Thanks, Sharley, I was encouraged by that. I honestly think I can tick most of the boxes, BUT, and it's a BIG BUT: On the main question of when are you ready to try getting published, and how do you know when you've reached that point, I am dithering. AND I wish this site was more proactive. It (whole MS read-swapping) has been mooted before, and as far as I can see, nothing has been put forward. Okay, maybe the owners wish to keep things as they are at present - I don't know. I would like to know, because I may need to look elsewhere, which would be a shame given the wealth of talent here.

Alan, I've just seen this. In my experience, you have to ask. As I said to Saturday, good training seems to be scarce in the UK. However, writers could be more pro-active, too. For instance, a while back I was in a local pub and heard a writers' group behind me. I joined the group which meets every Monday to critique a couple of stories. Which is fine. No one in the group has been published, but they all say they want to be. I went for a few meetings but then decided to stop. Why? Because there wasn't much for me there, on either of two counts: a) for my own writing (although I didn't really expect that) or b) for me being able to teach/coach. What I thought was, if I was an unpublished author in a group and this guy joined who's had novels published and is currently selling short stories to really tough markets, winning competitions, etc, and is also an editor and coach, I'd be banging at his door to get help - finding out what I could offer in exchange, etc. Yet only one of the group ever asked me for any help and when I gave it to her, she didn't act on it anyway. Not that she has to, but still.

As for whole MS read-swapping - it's not easy to find readers. Other writers tend to be short on time or they don't write at the same rate (making swapping difficult), or they just don't get what you need from them. No easy answer. My partner is my best reader. She's not a writer but has a great eye for big picture issues and details that don't work, and is very honest with me.

I take the view that subscription sites should provide services that are needed. Else why charge? other than to keep out 'riff-raff' (hate that expression - having a working class background, I'm riff-raff to many.)

Saturday has already put the view forward that a read-swap is needed, and I agree. Surely, more members - from the quiet majority - need it too.

So, why can't we have it? Sorry, I'm not asking you, Terry.
But, this has been said before, and I'm going over old ground. Btw, I don't live in England, and pubs don't exist here, and that's fine by me.
So, the internet it is.

Yes, the question of expertise, when freely offered and not accepted, is vexing. If I had been in that group I would have bitten your hand off. But group dynamics is a strange thing, and people get quite inhibited; I think 'face' is something to do with it. Having lived in China a while, I am familiar with that particular inhibition.

As for whole MS read-swapping - it's not easy to find readers. Other writers tend to be short on time or they don't write at the same rate (making swapping difficult), or they just don't get what you need from them. No easy answer. My partner is my best reader. She's not a writer but has a great eye for big picture issues and details that don't work, and is very honest with me.

I think this is a very good point. I've got two or three beta-readers lined up for the umpty-twiddly version of my novel, but only one is a fellow writer, and I think that's a good balance.

Why? Because while I do want a writerly opinion on my stuff, I also want to know what my target market readers make of it. Of course, I don't mean it's impossible to wear both hats, of course, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it difficult.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is once I think I've nailed the niggly bits, what I want from a reader is less of a critique and more an overall view of did they enjoy it, did the plot and characters work for them. And would they buy it?