So, I am going to be sending of my MS for submission. This is my first time doing so and I was wondering; how many agencies do people query before biting the sad bullet and retiring their work as unpublished?

Also, does it matter if the agency is not in my geographical region? I really want to submit to agencies I like and not just ones in and around me; how much does this matter?

Thanks

Why not try publishers first, or at the same time as? Getting an agent should essentially be a secondary task, after receiving an offer from a publisher. Going to agents without such an offer is always a tough task, especially since (obvious though it is) an agent is not the person who can make you an offer for publication.

Terry

<Added>

I know agents have set themselves up as gatekeepers (although that role is being seriously eroded with the rise of self-publishing) but I do find it sad, if not a bit crazy, that an author would see his book as unpublished when no publisher has actually had the chance to see it.

Thanks for the advice. I was always (for some reason) under the impression that you were best to snag an agent and let them go about trying to get you published. I have never written a full length novel before, so this is my first crack, as it were. Are publishers likely to take on a writer without an agent?

the advantage of an agent is that they know which editors are looking for what, and may give your ms more attention because they know it's going to be of a publishable standard if it's come through a publisher.

But as Terry says, you don't have to have one. You can approach publishers yourself as long as you do it in a professional manner and do some research to make sure your book would interest them. Then, if you do get offered a contract, you can approach agents to negotiate for you if you want to.

Well, looks like I have more work to do then, ha. Thanks! This is my first MS submission. I was thinking of taking a shot at 10 agents/publishers.

Just curious, how many enquiries people usually make with one piece of work? I suppose it depends on how much you believe in it.

But the traditional/standard way is to get an agent first (assuming you are talking about fiction?) Some publishers will accept unagented submissions, but many won't. And no, geographilac position doesn't matter. I live in France, my agent is in London.

I am. I have submitted to a few agencies already. Going to send out ten and see how they go.

Thanks

Yes, I'd think 10 to 15 is a good start - and if you get nothing but form rejections it might be a moment to have a re-think. If you get any kind of specific enthusiasm it's probably worth keeping going, because the chances are others will like it.

The drawback of submitting to publishers first is that if they reject it, if you go on to get an agent those publishers have, in essence, been used up. An agent is going to be much less interested in a manuscript if the list of potential editors is already shorter than it might be.

Plus, as other have said, very few of the major publishers still take un-agented submissions for fiction. And, generally speaking, you'd want to be starting with them, I should imagine, and only investigating smaller and indie publishers - who do take unsolicited subs - later on.

Thanks Emma! I am going Agency only for now, I think. Plenty to get on with there.

There's a powerful and persistent belief that you can't get a publishing deal without an agent. However, that really isn't the case. It's true that in the last 20 years or so, the ratio of books sold through agents as opposed to direct has increased but it's still nothing like as high as most people believe. Every piece of fiction I've sold, for example, was without an agent. I've had two agents but neither of them sold any of my fiction.

At the root of the belief that you won't sell without an agent is, I suspect, the overpowering need we writers have for someone to look after us. Which may have worked in the past, and maybe works still for a few writers with good agents, but the publishing world is changing massively. And much as I'm having trouble trying to make sense of it all, one thing that's reasonably clear to me is that this is not a good time to be signing contracts with agents or publishers without having some means to examine and question the fine print, not to mention the motives behind it.

Also - and I found this out the hard way - you have to bear in mind that in putting your work in the hands of an agent before a publisher has shown any interest, is a passive move. It can't really be anything else. Agents are business people and they will automatically react to an overly grateful, mild, pliant and clueless (about what they want) author.

Emma, I take your point that an agent may have problems submitting to publishers you've already been rejected by. But I'm not sure it's quite as black and white as that. I can't see an editor being annoyed - even if they remember - at seeing a book from an agent that's already been through their system. They can chalk it up to some sludge bunny having missed a good one, or whatever. And on the plus side, you're showing self-determination in submitting direct (albeit you have to find out how to, given most publishers' guidelines say "Feck off!"). You're also being pro-active with your career instead of sitting at home obsessing about why your agent hasn't contacted you since yesterday.

Besides, the editors I know all like to find good stuff themselves and enjoy reading a really well put together query+ - which of course may be the caveat in all this.

In short, I can't remember a time when it's been more important to think and do things for yourself.

Terry

Has anyone got a decent agency list I can look at? Author Advance seems to be playing up.

I think the thing about agents is that their core expertise is in a) knowing which editors are looking for what, and then b) knowing how best to persuade them that my book is what they're looking for... when half the time they don't know what they're looking for. Oh, and the fact that the majority of editors in the majority of major publishers aren't actually allowed to look at unsolicited fiction submissions anyway.

Those are two forms of expertise I don't have, and have no means of acquiring, at least till I've dealt with some publishers and editors and have a track-record... and by definition, with my first novel, I don't have a track-record (leaving aside journalists and non-fic writers, say).

As I see it, the most pro-active thing I can do for my career is to go to enormous trouble to get my work taken on by an excellent agent - and preferably but not essentially one who is also an excellent editor, to improve the chances of my novel selling, and selling well. That kind of agent has a third expertise that, by definition, I haven't got, since no one can be an editor (in that sense) for their own work.

And yes, I may sit at home wondering if my agent's going to ring. But that wouldn't be any different if she was an editor. And at least my agent has a powerful interest in chasing up anything which might become a deal, and then phoning me with the result so we can get moving, because that's how she earns her living.

I think this is an interesting and timely discussion to have. Before going into the details, a general point I'd make arises from my own journey in this area. Probably like a lot of writers, I'd unquestioningly absorbed the belief that one must have an agent in order to sell work. This, after I'd already sold two novels on my own; but at the time I thought an agent would get me better and more deals. Certainly, my first agent got me a better advance.

It wasn't really until I did a course taken by commercial writers that I saw that there was actually a very different attitude and approach prevalent in those who make their living from writing by producing books that the industry knows it can sell. In short - and it probably isn't fashionable to say this - but I think there is a divide amongst published authors: roughly speaking, into those who treat it as a living/business and those who are more amateur in their approach, at least to the business side of things. There isn't anything wrong with the latter of course, but I think it has led to some passive attitudes slipping in that might otherwise not be there, if the imperative of making one's living was the main driver.

In short, I think commercial writers take more responsibility for their careers - which means they write more, submit more, keep an eye on the market more, learn the business more, etc. Which means they tend to look at agents rather differently, i.e. as employees not career controllers. When the two writers taking my course told us they'd each sold over 90 novels, not one of them via an agent, I didn't really believe them. But then I realised that all my books had been sold without an agent getting the deal, too.

Which isn't to say there's anything wrong with getting an agent to sell your books for you. Clearly it works in many cases - although, as has been noted before, not on so large a scale as is generally believed to be the case. But I think the potential problem is, if you go to an agent and in effect say, please manage my career for me, you will inevitably become passive in certain areas (particularly business), and that's probably never a good thing where a career is concerned.

And I think this is particularly pertinent now, when agents are seeing their role in danger of being seriously diminished, especially by self-publishing. Okay, a writer may not want to go that route, but I think they still have to be careful that they don't passively believe everything is as it was; that agents will not, for example, get new writers to sign contracts that will keep all future works tied to the agent, or offer to be a publisher for the clients' backlists (taking a hefty chunk of the profits said clients could get by doing it themselves).

Oh, and the fact that the majority of editors in the majority of major publishers aren't actually allowed to look at unsolicited fiction submissions anyway.

I haven't found this to be the case. I circulated a novel recently direct to editors and while about a third didn't respond, the other two thirds did - not one of them saying they couldn't look at the proposal, and they clearly did, some asking to see the full, the others making pretty positive comments (not one suggesting I get an agent first). Okay, I guess my cover letter can point to previous published novels and current short story sales, but I also think there is an attitude issue here, too. Passively, we believe we shouldn't approach publishers direct - and certainly agents will encourage this view. But, if you're an experienced writer, and know you're producing good work, it's a little silly really to believe an editor wouldn't at least want to look at it.

I think the thing about agents is that their core expertise is in a) knowing which editors are looking for what, and then b) knowing how best to persuade them that my book is what they're looking for... when half the time they don't know what they're looking for.

This doesn't make sense to me. If publishers don't know what they're looking for, how can agents? And I don't think it's so difficult for a writer to know what editors are looking for anyway. Again, it means being pro-active but with the internet, conventions, blogs, etc, it's easy enough to find out what editors like. And given it's your career, you can spend a lot more time comparatively than an agent doing this, who's got dozens of other clients and several other genres to keep tabs on.

As I see it, the most pro-active thing I can do for my career is to go to enormous trouble to get my work taken on by an excellent agent - and preferably but not essentially one who is also an excellent editor, to improve the chances of my novel selling, and selling well. That kind of agent has a third expertise that, by definition, I haven't got, since no one can be an editor (in that sense) for their own work.

I agree with this; however, I think it's less common than people might like to believe. First, a lot of writers will simply go for the first agent who shows an interest, regardless of their experience, knowledge, enthusiasm, etc. And the wrong agent can be a career-killer. As for also being an editor, personally I'm sceptical. If an agent is an excellent editor, chances are it's because she was an editor with a publisher. Fine, but how much does she know about contracts - which is the main function I'd want from an agent. I'd also be wary of my agent editing my work ahead of a publisher's editor, i.e. I'm not sure it's naturally going to work to have two different editors go through a manuscript.

And yes, I may sit at home wondering if my agent's going to ring. But that wouldn't be any different if she was an editor. And at least my agent has a powerful interest in chasing up anything which might become a deal, and then phoning me with the result so we can get moving, because that's how she earns her living.

But surely there is a difference. If an editor rings, she can say she wants to buy the book, or at least push it to her sales team. But when an agent rings, there's still another stage to go through. And yes, an agent may have a powerful interesting in your book because it's how she earns her living, but that brings me back to my earlier point: isn't it how we make our living, too; or at least how we want to?

It's a difficult one though, Terry - i mean, i have a husband, school-age kids and live oop North. To send my work to editors myself, i would need to spend a reasonable amount of time going to conferences etc, networking and finding out exactly which desk to send my manuscript to. Someone in my position just can't feasibly do this. Whereas my agent has spent years doing exactly that and when she sends my work to an editor not only do they know her name, they've probably met her.

Does that make a difference? I think it does, in terms of getting your submission taken seriously. Only very rarely, using online contacts, have i mananged to find out suitable romance editors who'd be interested in my work and on querying, i've never heard back. Could be cos i'm not up to scratch, but how much easier and efficient the whole process is, with an agent.

I agree, times are changing, and i find it wholly satisfiying, regarding my woman's magazine sales, in dealing with the editors myself, without a middleman. and yes, it is frustrating, waiting for my agent to email and not being in control of the sub process myself. But i find that a small price to pay for her expertise which i could never acquire myself - not until my kids are older and train fares to London have diminished, in any case!

Although the route to being published by an indie is an entirely different manner and becoming much more accessible.

The publishng industry is diversifying in all sorts of ways and i believe it's a good thing. I was reading a womag yesterday and they had a new regular feature by the looks of it - a whole page dedicated to 'E-book of the month.'

Exciting times, really.

Good luck, FictionFan - some folks on here have subbed 50 agents or more. If you believe in your book and keep getting get good, personal feedback, just keep sending it out (unless the same comment keeps coming up about ways to improve it - and then do that).

Fair points, and I don't have an answer to the time question. There will be sacrifices needed, and if it's not possible to make them then, yes, maybe you need an agent to do it for you.

There may be a cultural angle here, also. When I attended the six-week Odyssey course in New Hampshire, while there were a fair few young people who were between school/university and jobs, there were also quite a lot of older people - married with kids, etc - who had taken big risks to get there. I've been to a few courses in the US and would say Americans perhaps are more willing to make sacrifices. There are three 6-week full time SF/Fantasy writing workshops in the US, but none in the UK. It's often been discussed, starting one here but the feeling is that on the whole British people wouldn't be so willing to make the sacrifices that may be needed to attend. Which is not a criticism, but perhaps a reflection that we look to different routes to get into the business here.

Terry