The ability to accept critique is one of the most important steps we can take on our road to publishing heaven.

As we all know, the Internet and the high street are stuffed with 'how to' books and advice on creative writing. And we also know that none of those books or that advice will turn us into successful authors if we don't already have some kind of creative ability.

However, publishers and editors demand certain standards, so creative writing 'rules' (how I hate that word!) and guidelines exist for that reason. Ignore them at your peril if you wish to be published.

But that doesn't mean they're written in stone - rules are there to be broken, especially in creative writing. The trick is knowing when to break them successfully.

A comment on another forum on WW has caused me to post this here, so that any possible future misunderstandings can be avoided.

When I critique a piece of work, I read it twice - once with my readers hat on, and then again wearing my critiquing cap. By doing that, I can normally get a feel for what an author is trying to achieve, and why he has written the piece in a particular way. So, when I begin to critique, I hopefully do so as thoughtfully as I possibly can (a full critique on a 4,000 word short may take me anything up to 2 hours to complete), and I don't quote rules and guidelines unless I feel it's necessary. In other words, I'm not fanatical about rules - I never have been, and never will be. In fact, I own only one 'how to' book, which I bought a few years ago when I first began writing seriously. Most of the improvements to my own writing are thanks to help I've received from other writers and critiquers as I"ve gone along.

Whether or not a writer accepts my critique is entirely up to them. If my comments resonate, great. If not, they are free to ignore them. I'm not an expert in critique - that's not what I'm saying. I merely pass on information that I've picked up over the years because I want to help others recognise what publishers and editors normally look for. And I try extremely hard to do that in a thoughtful way - I don't quote rules and guidelines willy-nilly. The only thing I'm fanatical about is improving my own writing and helping others do the same.

Good luck to you all - may your publishing dreams come true. :-)

Nice one, Tabitha. Thank you.
I'm currently having a critique done on a novel. What is evolving from it is that, basically, she likes my work very much (without blowing my own horn - she isn't the only one) but she is detached enough to see where it sags.
I don't believe a critique can make 100k words of rubbish into a saleable novel but, for the ones teetering on the brink of publication, it can make all the difference. If you are lucky enough to find someone genuine, of course (!)
Dee.

Thank you, Dee and Frankie, for reading and commenting. I've only been with WW for a few weeks, and I seem to have upset one or two members already, hence this explanatory post.

I've been used to receiving and giving very detailed critiqued, based on publishers' and editors' guidelines, on another site for several months now, so perhaps my style has been a bit of a culture shock for some here. Perhaps I was wrong by assuming that WW members wanted this kind of critique within their workshops. I have to say, though, that the authors I've critiqued so far seem to be reasonably happy with my comments - the problem seems to be with other critiquers rather than the authors.

I and some of the newer members might be interested in forming a very candid critique workshop for fiction writers here, one where all members will have to give critique on a regular basis as well as receive it. If enough people show interest, I would be happy to approach David to ask if we can set this up. What do you think, folks? Is it something that might interest existing members?

Tabitha

What do you think, folks? Is it something that might interest existing members?

YES PLEASE..........I'm damn near starving for it.

Tabitha

surely it depends why you write as to how you handle critique. I think perhaps there is an assumption that everybody who posts on here wants to be published.

It is evident that most would like to be published but, those who write for fun have probably never bothered to even approach a publisher and indeed never will.

It also depends why somebody has written a particular piece, whilst they may have decided to give it an airing it may just have been written as an emotional release and perhaps full on critique is not appropriate or welcomed and in deed all they require is an emotional lifebelt whilst they go through some rough water in life.

Equaly there are those on here who have dreams of topping the best seller list ( if so they certainly arent poets) and do wish for said critque, however, surley the trick is, as with any learning excercise, to provide critque in a way which whilst honest, is also positive and does not dissuade the writer from further attempts at improving their work or indeed writing again.

I am aware of a tutor in creative writing, from my past, who was extremely good at the technical aspects of writing, grammar, punctuation and etc, had a good but slightly strange sense of humour, and was reasonably personable, however their style was such as to create aggression and resentment in some of their students to the point that potentially good writers stopped attending the class. Because the tutor was a pedant, slightly over egotisitcal, destroyed a lot of the free spirit in the writing and ignored or even decried experimentation if it didn't fit within their own boundaries of acceptability in grammar and style.

I am not attempting here to say or imply that you have acted in such away but just trying to illustrate why, perhaps some people dont take critique in the spirit in which it is given.

Also human emotions come into it, although as writers it is the one time when we should become emotionless that is when somebody offers us critque which shall we say does not view our piece as the next Booker prize winner, hurt pride is a bitter pill to swallow.

anyway I hope that the above may help smooth the waters a little after all we all write and post on here for our own reasons and they are not always so obvious to the wider audience of members.

take care and hope fully see you at The Royal Oak

david

With regards to critique, can I ask those who have reacted poorly to negative comments exactly why their work is being displayed in a public forum for all to see, with a comment function attached for the specific use of feedback?

I can only assume that these people think that their work is gospel genius, and are quickly falling from the lofty heights from which they assumed they belong.

I laugh when I think back to the first negative comments I received. Visions of me sitting red-faced and highly offended shaking my fist at a computer screen seem quite simply ludicrous now. It took a while for the concept to dawn on me that perhaps I wasn't the world's finest up and coming writer, and that all and sundry were being honoured by the opportunity to read my little rantings.

I love getting feedback, positive or otherwise. Of course, I prefer the former, but who doesn't? Getting positive feedback straight away means you've possibly got the formula fairly correct first time, which is always encouraging. Negative feedback doesn't mean you're a crap writer, it's a learning curve.

Personally, I have at least two pieces of work on this site that weren't well received at all. I was slated for excessive detail and verbosity. I didn't cry over this, or lose sleep, instead it helped me notice the worrying trend of excessively detailing certain areas, while flitting through others at pace. I've slowly begun to address this.

THANKYOU WRITEWORDS FOR THE VALUABLE CRITIQUE I HAVE RECEIVED!

Hehe

IB

Frankie - there you go again recommended other sites! This site is certainly meant as a refuge for those people olebut mentions, as well as many aspiring and seasons pros.

There is, as Olebut says, a way of saying things - offering suggestions, without as it were 'laying down the law', for example starting with the good points, then making your suggestions. I know some people like a 'full on' approach, and we may look into setting up such a group, but the general tone of the site we are aiming for pretty much exactly what Olebut describes.

The strange thing is, when I review both Frankie and Tabitha's comments, they all seem to be positive and helpful! I must have missed the one, Tabitha where you upset someone??

I think that the application of a little common sense and an empathy for the quality of work viewed should point to the level of critiquing required.

If the piece was obviously by a new writer, I would maybe point out typo's and grammatical errors, suggest show don't tell and a few other basic but important rules.

If the piece was very polished and crafted, I might suggest possible problems with the storyline or character.

That's just me though.

Darryl

Yes. We've a very particular 'culture' on this site, and Darryl speaks about it well in indicating that he is sensitive to the particular writer he is criting at the time. I think suggesting things to each other is the way rather than writing down exactly the way the 'criter' would have rephrased a sentence. If for example someone thinks my sentences are too long, as did Mailme, I would certainly take that in, - very valid point! But being quite a grown up person, I don't need a hand with putting it right, just the suggestion is enough.
I think we're talking about 2 different styles of approach here, and it's fair enough if some of us prefer the 'this is how you do it' approach. For myself, I am happy with the present tone of this site and have had a great many delightful conversations with, and support from, other people here. I hope it stays this way, there are other sites out there that obviously have the harsher approach, and I can only wish them luck.

David - as I said, I haven't had a problem with members whose work I've critiqued. The problem has been with folk making snide comments on the forums about my style of critique, whih I feel is pretty well out of order. However, I deal with these problems myself - I don't run to the webmaster every time someone says something that isn't to my personal taste.

Olebut - maybe I've misunderstood the purpose of WW's workshops, but I'm a member of them because I want serious critique, not because I want to hear how wonderful I am. If I was writing for fun, I wouldn't have paid £20 to gain critique from experts.

Becca - I'm amazed to hear you say that you don't want folk to give examples of how one's work might be improved. As an expert, you probably don't need it, but I most certainly do. Someone telling me that my work needs 'paring down' without an example of how I might do that, is far too vague to be of any use. Yep, I'm probably thick, but I'm not too proud to admit it! Lol!

If I've upset anyone here, I sincerely apologise. But please, will people accept that I'm serious about writing, and when I critique or post links to pieces of useful information, I really don't think it's fair that I should be attacked for it. Everything I do is done in the best interests of everyone. :-)

Hi Tabitha,
Paying £20 to join Writewords is not money paid to gain critiques from 'experts', but to be in a supportive environment of writers who learn from each other.
On editing something down, you might say to someone such and such a para is too long and needs cutting down, but they figure out how to do it themselves, (if they agree with you), because it's their work. If you think about painters, you wouldn't go look at someone's painting, pick up their paintbrush and add your own strokes would you? You might say I think it's too dark, too blue, too red, whatever, in that section. If I painted over my painting friends work, they'd lock me out of their studios.
In terms of grammar or typos, yes of course you point them out, people are grateful for that. They could disagree about that too, though. If you really need the criter to show you exactly how to re-model your sentences, you only have to ask them. Hope that makes sense.
The other thing I think is important to say here is that people have to decide for themselves what's in their best interests.
I don't think it's in doubt you are serious about your writing, but in order to get the best out of this site you need to gain the trust of the people who put the time in to look at your writing, and they need to trust you too. It's a reciprocal development. Anyway, don't be hurt any longer. If we go on talking about all this stuff much longer, I'll be even more annoyed with myself for hardly doing any writing of my own these days, and fall into a terrible gloom. Winter's coming, I don't need to be in a gloom.
Becca.

Tabitha

I joined WW and I think the majority of others, many of whom I know on here have done so for similar reasons as me. it is a site were like minded people with a common interest can share what they have. In return they recieve helpful advice on their work.

I agree very much with Becca's analogy of the painting. there is a line beetween helpful advice, given with good intent and advice which comes over as unintentional arrogance.

I stand by my comment that many join a site such as this for the social enjoyment and interaction of enjoying and sharing their writing the £20.00 a relativley small sum is no different from that you would pay to join a club or writing circle and is indeed academic.

There are pieces on here which in my view are brilliant and equally pieces on here which are not, I may or may not comment on either, because ultimately, grammatical errors apart, the accolade of brilliance or not is only my view.

It may also be that the reason the person has written and shared the work is to release some emotional demon ( I know of at least 5 people on here who do that or have done so in the past) that in no way devalues their work but perhaps when one senses that in reading the work then one should treat the work differently from other pieces by showing support for their emotions rather than critque of their work in a traditional way.

I think now is the time that perhaps this particular forum should be allowed to quietly vanish

David

Before it does so, I just wanted my two pennys worth. I just wanted to say that joining WW (soon to be a full member, most definately) has been one of the most positive moves I've made concerning my writing.

It's difficult to get good, honest feedback from friends and family, most of whom are not avid readers and don't understand the finer points of the craft. But between their opinions, and the online opinions of other creatives, nothing has been more helpful. Yes, I've read things about my work which have grated a little, but in the end, I already feel my style has improved. When I take the same objective stance as the criter, I can see how they were right (mostly)and how the work can be improved.

I sometimes feel that people can get so stuck on the 'rules' that they lose the sense of a story, and ultimately, story is what it's all about, isnt it? A good story badly written, for me, is far far better than a bad story which has been written to within an nth of the rulebook.

I recently sent a few chapters and a synopsis to a professional critique, just to see what the feedback would be. She did't like the story, and critisised it for being 'downbeat'. The novel is actually intended to BE downbeat. I found none of her comments constructive or helpful, and had I listened to her, I would have lost the essential belief in my own work. I would not have sent it out any more, and I would not have found an interested publisher. I'm not saying all professional critiques are like this, just this particular experience.

The problem arises again, with story. A story is subjective. Obviously, grammar, spelling etc. are important, but if a story is good enough to capture the imagination, then these other things are easily sorted. WW gives us more than a critique service, it gives us a chance to communicate with other writers, learn from our own and another's mistakes, hear about national and international news which we otherwise might not have, get pointed in the direction of a good agent/publisher/novel to read...the list is endless.

I agree that critisism is all part of the process. Dealing with it are all part of the process, whether you are a professional or not. If you want others to read your work, you have to be prepared for critisism good or bad.

As a famous writer once said:

"You must learn to accept rejection, and reject acceptance"

and another said:

"better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self"

The latter quote doesnt have much to do with the issue, but I like it anyway

James x

Agree with everything you say, James.

I'm pretty used to receiving critiques now after doing a Creative Writing MA. The general rules I follow are: if a comment rings true, I take it on board. If not, I ignore it. If lots of people have made the same comment, generally I take it on board. If a comment brings up strong (defensive) feelings in me, I examine the reasons why.

Most importantly, critiques are just one person's opinion, and to quote Dirty Harry: "Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one".