You are all too forgiving - I wish I had your tolerent reaction to the dismissive (not too say insulting) way publishers and agents act. I would recommend all of you trying to battle through for publication to try the US market - my experience has been very good. They tend to value good material and good authors far more than the UK 'agents'(hah!) and publishers. Try Winterwolf - Kevin Grover is looking for material across the genres right now. CB Barrie

Barrie,

I wouldn't disagree with your views on the dismissiveness displayed by at least some UK agents and publishers, and that US outfits can be less crude with their rejections. Having said that, I'm not sure it's fair to compare 'standard' publishers with Winterwolf. I've had a quick look at Winterwolf's site and I think it's important to appreciate that they operate quite differently to most publishers. Which isn't to say there's anything dodgy about what they do, only that one should be aware of the differences.

If a conventional publisher takes on your book, they invest a lot of up-front money in it, e.g. in cover design, editing, printing, promotion and, crucially, distribution. In order to get your book on to shelves where people might buy it is an expensive business.

Winterwolf, as far as I can see, will do some editing for you and possibly pay for cover design. They will do some promotion, although you will need to do a lot yourself also. They won't charge you for their efforts, and probably they'll offer a higher royalty rate than a standard publisher. But what they can't do is distribute your book to bookstores, or get it reviewed in mainstream newspapers, magazines, etc. Probably, your book will be Print on Demand, which means copies will only be produced to order. There's nothing wrong with any of this, of course, but it does make the author a bigger investor in the end product which, it could be argued, is reason to be nicer to him than a conventional publisher.

BeWrite books in the UK has a very similar operation to Winterwolf. BeWrite have worked hard to bridge the gap between self-publishing and conventional publishing but, in my view at least, it's by no means certain they'll succeed. And I have to say that part of the reason is that the quality of the books produced by such an operation does not tend to be as high as conventional publishing. But that's just my view, of course.

Terry

To add to the discussion, I have to say that about 2 years ago or so, I did try Winterwolf with something, but they never came back to me at all even with any acknowledgement, in spite of 2 or 3 reminders. So I wasn't terribly impressed with the admin system. As it was, I decided to do it myself last year, and thoroughly enjoyed it - so maybe they did me a favour after all!!

)

LoL

A
xxx

I think one of the problems with submitting material is that it almost feels like a form of begging. It feels a little like I'm saying please, please could you take a look at my work.

At the end of the day though, publishers and agents rely on authors producing work to keep them in business.

These days, it seems like most agents/publishers don't want to take risks with new authors but prefer to stay with proven authors. I can understand this from a business persepective, but it makes it very difficult to break through as a new author.

I know it's all a question of who has the power but it would be nice if authors submitting material were treated a little better.

Stephanie

Stephanie,

The good side of commercial publishing is that there isn't really any personal bias. If they think your book will sell, they'll do it. (Although, of course, there are plenty of elements other than writing that come into the consideration of what is sellable.) By contrast, if you check the products on a lot of POD sites, you'll see the same names cropping up time and again, and if you dug a little deeper, chances are these names are closely linked to the company in one way or another.

And yes, it is hard for new authors but in many ways it's even harder for the so-called 'mid-list' authors. Publishers are keen on exciting new talent (i.e. that may produce a best-seller) and proven sellers, but what they're increasingly disinterested in are the authors who sell reasonable to small amounts, who very often are the ones who are the better writers (subjective opinions aside), who win awards and are sought after by, say, librarians who know their work is reliable. I saw the website of a large publisher the other day, for instance, who proudly announces that it publishes fiction by 'exciting new' authors and well-known names, i.e. nothing in-between.

Because of the squeezing from the top end down of publishers' costs, as soon as you're identified as a non-best seller type author, you'll be marshalled into the mid-list with your editor (and sales people) performing a kind of damage limitation exercise on your work. Which in effect means you'll be pressured to keep producing similar types of books so that you can at least be branded to a degree that helps the minimal promotion they'll then spend on you.

Terry

Terry,

You're right, I can see how the mid-list authors get squeezed at both ends.

However, speaking as a non-published author at this point I (rather pathetically I know) would love to be even a mid-list author! I know I should be aiming to be an exciting break-through new author but right now I can't see past getting an agent/publisher to accept my work. It seems like a very high barrier I've got to get over at the moment.

I'm not too disheartened as yet, I just feel a bit like a child staring through the window of a sweet shop, longing to be inside.


Stephanie

Stephanie,

Completely understood, and a natural impulse. But, given the state of the industry, I would advise at least thinking about the scope of the book you submit, purely because if it succeeds, chances are the publisher will try to get you to do a sequel or at least another story with the same themes and kinds of characters. You'll hear authors (Philip Pullman comes to mind) who will talk about how you should only write stories that you're moved to write. And most of us would say Yes to that. But the fact is, it's getting much harder to succeed on those terms, unless you're already established as that kind of author. And you'll notice that even with Philip Pullman they re-issued his earlier books with covers very similar to his trilogy, even though the subject matter couldn't have been more different.

Terry

Terry,

I know, you're right. The book I'm currently sending out to the agents is the first in a trilogy. I try to write books that I love to read and that I know my daughter who's in my age group would love to read. It is a tricky balance between aiming for commercialism and writing what you love.

Still, as long as I love writing, I'll keep going even if I don't get published! To be honest, I don't think I could stop writing now - it's a part of me.

Stephanie

Stephanie

You wrote: "At the end of the day though, publishers and agents rely on authors producing work to keep them in business."

This is true. If we all went on strike, they'd have to write it themselves. But the problem for us is that there is no shortage of writers, in fact there's a a glut of people writing with the hope of being published. So that's why there is a seeming tilt in the balance of power the gatekeepers' way. Too much supply, not enough demand (from the gatekeepers anyway). And don't start me on quality ...

I think it might be/have been much the same in oral cultures. You know, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth (ahem), I decide that sabre-tooth tiger hunting or berry-gathering isn't for me, so I think I'll score a few chops and a seat at the fireside with my epic tales of adultery among the crags and caves - only to find there's a queue of hopefuls with the same reluctance to work, all waiting to audition before my gap-toothed elders.

Keep on keeping on, what else is there to do?

Joe

At least in prehistoric times you didn't have to enclose an sae or pay P&P to get a gap-toothed elder to see your work!

Nice image though - do you think we are all trying to avoid doing real jobs with this layabout hobby of writing?

I probably am - would love to get paid for doing something I loved!

Stephanie

The comments on Winterwolf are nor warrented. Yes, they are short on direct distribution to the bookstores but the production values are high, as too is the cover artwork. Likewise the critics and readers reviews so far garnered for Winterwolf titles demontrates the spread of WWP's reputation and the quality of authorship that Winterwolf insist on. It is not second rate, as any current WWP author will attest to, and my guess is that it won't be long before they are just as effective as any of the mainstream publishers. If you are determined to get yourself a long established publisher all to the good, but just how long are you prepared to wait? I took the view that the reputation of one title, published by a little known publisher, was better than nothing at all. I continue to bask in the pleasure of seeing my work in print - and to note that others have seen my work and confirmed that I write well.

Stephanie

You wrote: "do you think we are all trying to avoid doing real jobs with this layabout hobby of writing?"

Not really... hmmm, frankly, yes ... oh, I don't know. Writing, if you can make a professional 'go' of it is a job too, but it's not one I fancy. You may find this strange, but I enjoy being a minor government functionary in a key policy area with national and international business. Lots of conflict, lots of drama ... beats the hell out of chasing invoice payments from 'Caged Birds Monthly' (for me, for me, maybe not youse out there). Of course, I'd like to have lots of readers and make money from books through royalties, be translated into Polish, go to Cracow (in my time off) and be interviewed, and stay in the IBIS (don't knock the IBIS, please) - but it's a bit late for me to think of writing as a 'career'. It's something I do to pass the time while I wait for eternal night to fall. I'm like those guys (it's usually guys)who make scale models of the Taj Mahal palace out of matchsticks. Except with me it's words, and I don't really use a model to copy from. I play music too, but I don't want to be a 'pro' (although I was in my early 20s).

But clearly there are people for whom writing is a 'vocation' - they gotta do it as a professional 'thang', and are willing to live on short commons to do so. Which is tough, not easy at all. Like some musicians of my acquaintance over the years.

Respect to the committed dudes!

Joe

Speaking of differences between US and UK markets (and I am skipping agents here and going directly to publishers), a member of our writing group wrote a novel for children. her agent showed it to a major UK publisher, who offered a piddling advance (but at least they made an offer). They did not accept this, instead took it to the US, where it was taken on by a big house which made an excelelnt offer, including a three-book contract which has since been expanded to a five-book contract. Since that time the original UK publisher has had to eat humble pie and offer far more than it did originally, and that for UK rights instead of the worldwide rights, which had been offered originally. And rights have been sold on to somewhere between 15 - 20 other countries since then (could be getting something garbled there, but something like). She went on a 14-city tour of the US in May and her books are now lining the bookshop windows - something I don't think the UK publisher was about to do in the first place, but now they're willing.....

So maybe it's worth approaching US markets in the first instance.

Stephanie - thanks for taking a look at my story. I'm really glad you liked it. I've never read the gentlemen's novels you mentioned but I've seen them. They look quite fun, so I might pick one up.

I'm also writing a trilogy, of which this uploaded one will be the first book. I'll go and check out some of your children's horror - sounds interesting!

America is a big place, with a lot more ground to cover. I also suspect Americans are not as stuffy or stuck in their ways as the UK market. I found the people I dealt with a lot more approachable and informal, and my publisher is just great - sense of humour et al, and she's not afraid to kick my ass when I drag my heels.

Also, modern pop culture shows us the truth very clearly. If you succeed in the States, you will succeed just about anywhere. One must also remember that there is also a huge film industry over there, where some real money can be made if your book gets optioned.

JB

<Added>

I didn't mean to use the word also twice in the last sentence!

Thanks JB - will definitely check out States if the agent my book is with at the mo turn me down.

Sorry, haven't had time to read any more of your book at the moment - about to dash up to Glasgow to see my new niece! v exciting.

Looking forward to reading rest of your book when I get back - I honestly think it's great.

May be a while before I get chance to upload my new horror book although am still considering whether to upload my current book. Just a case of getting up the courage...

Cheers

Stephanie