Does one page in word (double spaced) equal one page in the average printed novel? Generally speaking, I mean.

B

Maybe someone else can answer this as I don't know myself... but I'm glad you asked because I have a similar question...

Up to now I've been using the Word word-count to come up with my own word count. On another writers' forum someone said that the way to count words was to multiply number of pages by 250 (or some such number), and apparently Word's word count shouldn't be used. I asked the reason for this but nobody replied.

SO can anyone tell me here, what's wrong with Word's word count?

Ha! I spoke too soon. My question HAS been answered:

MS Word count essentially counts every word, no matter how long. Production editors in publishing houses use a more complicated formula that's historically has averaged to the 250/page number, if you use 1" margins all around and, I believe, 26 lines per page (not 25 as mentioned previously). The 5 characters/word (including spacing) is from a typing speed calculation, but I find it is very helpful if you use something other than a Courier mono typeface.

That’s interesting. The manuscript for The Winter House is exactly 400 pages of A4. By this calculation, that makes the wordcount 100k. On Word’s calculator it’s 113k – which is quite a difference.

I've heard that some publishers have a break-point of 120,000, above which the production costs increase. So coming in at under 120k could make the difference between publication or rejection. When I was writing TWH I was concerned about breaking through that ceiling. If all publishers use this alternative method of counting, it means I had much more leeway than I thought.

B, I think the answer to your question is probably no. It would depend on the size of the book, the page layout and the font. Another thing I've heard – and Aruna might be able to confirm this – is that the font size in a book is, up to a point, an indication of the publisher’s confidence, or lack of, that sales will hit target. The smaller the print, the less paper needed.

Dee

Jusyt to confuse you even further, Dee:
Andreww Zack the agent says that another way is to divide characters by 5; and someone else says, no, divide charcters by 5.6

This brings my novel in uits present state to the following:



MS WORD: 164 440
characters divided by 5: 179 662
divided by 5.65: 159 085
page count by 250: 137 500

Needless to say, I like the last one best, as I still have at least 2000 more words to go.
The MS WORD count seems to be a jolly median; but it is very confusing.

much food for thought - thanks! And here was I thinking 'word count' meant how many words there were in your document: what an amateur!

Thanks again
B

<Added>

edited to add: I'm about 75k words in now (the Word word count) which works out, double spaced in 12pt TNR to be about 220pp. I thought I was writing a monster but if the average novel length is more 100k then it's okay that I'm not done yet! I've writen two other novels for my bottom drawer only - one came in at 96k and one, a YA novel, was around 60K - both unpublishable, I reckon, but good practice.

Aruna might be able to confirm this – is that the font size in a book is, up to a point, an indication of the publisher’s confidence, or lack of, that sales will hit target. The smaller the print, the less paper needed.

I never heard that theory Dee, and just did a bit of research on some books on my shelf.

Two books seem to have the same large font: The Icarus Girl by Helen Oyeyemi, and The Colour, by Rose Tremain. But the former only has 300 pages, whereas the latter has 368.

And, most important: Helen has 33 lines to a page and Rose has 39!

Rohinton Mistry's A Fine Balance has a very small font (the smallest of all) and 603 pages. 42 lines to a page.

White Teeth has a slightly parger font than A Fine Balance, 460 pages, and 38 lines per page.

Useless info perhaps, but it does seem to say that if they want to publish a long book, they will.
Bloomsbury recetly published that first novel that was shortlisted for the Whitbread - Mr Norrel and Somebody Clark, and that was almost a thousand pages, I believe.

A Suitable Boy was 1500 pages - delicious!
But I suppose to get your foot in the door, a count of between 100000 and 120000 would be best.

My previous books were about 150000 (MS WORD), so I'm going a bit overboard this time. The first novel I ever wrote was 700 pages in first draft!

It's obvious there's a lot of variation in 'word count' between published novels.

If you look at Ian McEwen's 'Amsterdam' or Magnus Mills's 'Restraint of Beasts' (a more pertinent example because it was his first shot), you'll quickly see that they ain't long. Maybe 'Restraint' tops out at 60,000 (I'm not going to estimate just now, although it's an anorak thing I do from time to time).

So is 'word count' particularly relevant? Only I guess in certain genres (e.g. high-tech thriller?) Maybe here the publisher is thinking of how the reader will judge value for money - and I guess many books are bought to read on journeys to and from work. So one book will have to serve X journeys, at so many words a day. The customer maybe wants to buy one or two books a month - not have to keep going back to the store and shelling out more money (join a library, sucker).

Your novel, or biography, whatever, will be as long as it has to be, surely?

Joe

Oh bugger, now I'm really confused. Word-count is relevant if, like me, you tend to write long, long stories, and if there's any truth in the theory (which I suspect there is) that publishers are reluctant to shell out for all that extra paper they'd need if they were to take a chance on my work. Another reason why I, personally, could do with a definitive answer is because I'm seriously considering sending my first novel, No Mystics, to one of those assessment services (any recommendations, BTW?), and they charge by word length. I kind of thought, until now, that No Mystics was 168000. If I use the 'characters divide by 5' method I get the much-improved 148800; by 5.6 and it's the very much cheaper 132850! The 'pages by 250' method gives a nice average of 141000, but I've only got 23 lines to a page (12pt TNR, double-spaced, 1" margins etc etc). Help! I'm losing the will to live....


Julie

Very interesting, Mojo! With you, divide by 5 IMPROVES your score, but with me it worsens it by quite a bit. Hmmm... does that means you use longer words, or do I? (always terible at maths!)

I'd recommend Hilary Johnson's assessment service. It's the one I used and she got me an agent when it was over.

Aruna

Er... think it means you use longer words. My maths is notoriously lousy!

Interestingly, Hilary Johnson is one of the services I've considered. I've yet to decide whether to go for it, which I can't really afford at the moment, or waste yet more postage on a last-ditch attempt at an agent. Anyone out there ever tried Nooza, who have just appeared in the 'Google' sidebar? I ask as they are certainly cheaper than the rest!

Julie

Julie, I don’t believe Nooza are cheaper than the rest. Unless they’ve changed their service in the last year or so, the price they quote is for the first 25,000 words only, and they don’t offer an option for a critique on the full novel.

There was a time when I would have thought that, if the first 25k words were good enough, the rest would follow but I've been proved wrong. I wrote a novel about four years ago which, in my inexperienced opinion, I’d polished until it squeaked. I was punting the first three chapters around agents, as you do, and one asked to see the full manuscript. After an agonising wait, he rejected it on the grounds that the second half didn’t have the strength of the first.

With hindsight I realised that he was right. I'd concentrated too much on the front end. The story has a happy ending, however, because I had another novel which I persuaded him to read… and he signed me up on the strength of that. He hasn’t managed to sell it but it was a great learning curve, and I’m still with him.

The point is, if you’re going to invest in a professional critique, get the whole manuscript done. It’s not worth taking half-measures.

I've heard several good reports about Hilary Johnson. I can also personally recommend http://www.jbwb.co.uk She works by email, a chapter at a time, doesn’t pull her punches but praises the best bits, and you can pay in instalments. I paid with a series of post-dated cheques and the critique was finished about two months before the last one went through the bank. It was the only way I could afford it at the time.

Good luck

Dee

Dee

Yes, I think you're right about Nooza - and I don't see the point of a partial appraisal, either. I've had a good look at Jacqui Bennett's website, and I do like the idea of submitting chapter by chapter, especially by email. I think I may go with this one, as I've got to do something to get myself out of this rut of doing absolutely nothing.

Thanks for the advice.

Julie

Julie, I think she'd prefer you to submit the whole ms and then she critiques chapter by chapter. Of course, if you're not ready to send it all yet, I'm sure she'll negotiate. Email her - she's very flexible.

Dee

Going back to the word count question - the complicated production director's formula dates from the days of typescripts in courier and hot metal typesetting, before word processor counting and proportional DTP fonts. I've never known an agent or editor who expected anything other than a WP word-count - they only want a rough idea anyway.

On MS length, I'd say below 75,000 the trade thinks it's short so it had better be sweet, and below 65,000 they're probably not interested. Up to 100,000 is normal, but my current novel is 138,000, my last was 141,000 and I never heard that length was a problem with either. Production costs are only around a 6th of the cover price of a book (or they were when I was publishing 20 years ago), so I'd be surprised if a few signatures of paper more or less was going to tip the balance between being published or not.

I'm not sure there's much point in trying to second guess the arcane calculations of production departments. If someone you trust (or want to take you on) says a book's too long, it's because there are too many words not earning their keep. And if too short, then there aren't enough words to do the job.

Emma