For centuries the world's best writers survived somehow without creative writing degrees. I'm sure they will continue to do so!

This filter sounds like an effective method of screening out talent.

There are probably more bad CW courses than good ones, so don't lose too much sleep over not having the money to afford to go on one. The bad ones can do more harm than good.

That's not to knock the good ones...

Chris

Dee,
You're right, of course. Just because someone doesn't have the time, opportunity or finances to enrol on a creative writing degree doesn't mean that they aren't talented or committed writers. And I admit that my argument can be described as being somewhat judgemental. But I feel that it's time that someone in the fiction publishing industry recognised that these degrees are worth more than just a footnote on a CV. New Dawn Publishers are not claiming that those excluded from our selection process are worthless; we're just standing up for the student and graduate authors that we cater for and saying that they aren't worthless. Compared to some other publishers which only publish the work of certain communities, discriminating on the grounds of race, gender and sexuality, I firmly believe that our cause is far more noble and egalitarian.

Eve,
I'm sorry if our stance angers or offends you in any way, and I understand your frustration. Finding the funding needed to take a degree at university was hard enough even before the tuition fee hike came in, and now, it's practically impossible. But you are still a graduate, and just because you haven't graduated from a creative writing degree doesn't mean that you're automatically excluded. We're willing to stretch the term, relating to the field of creative writing, further than you might expect in exceptional cases. Indeed, one of our authors, James Brett, actually graduated from a degree in computing; however, on account of his own personal efforts as vice-president of his university's creative writing society, the determination with which he argued that he should be considered as a valid candidate under our policy, and the standard of the work he submitted to us, we decided that he deserved to be given a chance. Based on the work and synopses that you've posted on WriteWords thus far, there's no reason to believe that you wouldn't be given a chance in the same manner he was.

Chris,
There are a few downsides to your argument. For centuries, authors did win critical acclaim before the first creative writing degrees were introduced; but how do you know that the most celebrated authors were indeed the world's best writers? Prior to the last fifty years or so, how many of these acclaimed figures came from anything other than a privileged background? Or at the very lowest, a 'middle-class' background, back in the days when the middle class were still counted among the wealthiest 10>20% of society? Were there unrealised talents in the lower echelons of society then who possessed even greater potential than the privileged few, who could have been ever greater than those who we count as the best authors of their time today? Food for thought...
But Creative Writing degrees do matter. Look at any major book prize over the last few decades- Man Booker, Costa/Whitbread, Guardian, RSoL... Then, look at the biographies of the shortlisted authors. Look at their educations, and a recurring theme soon emerges. We're confident that our policy won't serve to screen out talent, any more than a football club's scouting policy would by focusing their efforts on youth academies (or rather, does- Arsene Wenger knows what I'm talking about).
And even now, we're working on the task of measuring the gap between the 'good' & 'bad' CW courses. Our BEST & BRIGHTEST competition is the first creative writing competition open to students and graduates from every institution across the UK, and there isn't just a prize for the overall winner. The universities' whose alumni do best will be rewarded as well- and the list of universities whose CW students perform best will almost certainly not be those with the most prestigious courses. We'll have a clearer picture of where the best and worst CW courses really are, soon enough...

Hmm.

You know, I'm really on the fence with this one.

On one hand, I completely understand what Eve's saying - my degree is also unrelated, and unless you count two years spent toiling on my school magazine back in nineteen-oatcake, I don't think you'd look at my stuff either - it's vaguely irritating, but there are lots of alternatives who might, so I'm not going to get overly worked up about it. Your project, your rules, right?

However...I think your definition of 'best' writers worries me. It does smack of prescriptiveness, of orthodoxy like the 'all adverbs must die' dictum or the fad for culling 'was' in the belief that it's somehow indicative of passive writing, for instance.

Also, using your own argument, you're effectively screening out the majority of new writers, who almost certainly won't have had the time or the money to take a CW course. I'm not sure how the 'unrealised talents' you mention are going to fare any better under your scheme. (And, ahem, given your location (and mine) I could just mention a certain ploughman poet who did okay for himself without being part of the upper echelons of society, at least in the beginning!)

But honestly, all the best to you - publishing is a hard game to join at any time, so hope things go well for your venture.

I haven't read the whole thread but the website doesn't appear to work. I got a jangly song and nothing else.

Deb

Debac,

I was somewhat perturbed by your post. This is thistleinthex's website you're talking about? Because if you're saying you've been having problems accessing our website, www.newdawnpublishersltd.co.uk, then you'd be the first.

we firmly believe that those authors who have invested the time, effort and expense to improve themselves as writers, should be rewarded for their qualifications, in the same manner as professionals would be in any other vocation.

So, you have no time for those who have invested the time and effort, but have not chucked a few grand at it, as well? Interesting.

Prior to the last fifty years or so, how many of these acclaimed figures came from anything other than a privileged background? Or at the very lowest, a 'middle-class' background, back in the days when the middle class were still counted among the wealthiest 10>20% of society? Were there unrealised talents in the lower echelons of society then who possessed even greater potential than the privileged few, who could have been ever greater than those who we count as the best authors of their time today? Food for thought...

So, you still wish to exclude those from lower class backgrounds if they have not had a university education? Equally interesting.

janmb,

Why have you, and so many others on this thread, taken in upon yourselves to deride our publishing house? Would you be having a go at us in the same way if we were a women's only publisher, or a Christian publisher, or an LGBT publisher? And if we only accepted solicited manuscripts, none of you would even be batting an eyelid. As it is, New Dawn Publishers is the only publishing house to take a stand for these students, to come out and say that their qualifications are worth more than just a footnote on their CV's, that they should be worth more in the wider publishing industry. Not because we're elitist, not because we're looking to exclude authors from lower-class backgrounds, but for reasons which are the exact opposite!

How many people do you think there are out there who would still be prepared to fork out, not just 'a few grand', but now as much as ten times that sum- not to mention at least three years of their life- to take a creative writing degree without any real chance of having their employment prospects improved by it? In the past year, thanks to the tuition fee hike, several Creative Writing degrees have already been discontinued by their respective institutions, and more are guaranteed to follow them into oblivion before the start of the next academic year.

Unless our publishing house becomes a success, unless other publishers take note of our success and decide to adopt our submissions policy, then it is surely inconcievable that any people from lower-class backgrounds will be able to pursue creative writing degrees at all. The only people who will be able to afford to take them will be upper-class toffs, the only universities with prestige levels high enough to entice enough of them in will be Oxford, Cambridge, KCL, UEA and a select few others, and the field of cutting-edge prose fiction will be very much poorer as a result.

This publishing house of ours, New Dawn Publishers Ltd, was founded to give the very poorest, 'lower-class' students their chance to reap something, anything, from their years of study. If our policy is elitist and discriminatory, then so is that of any employer which asks for qualifications- a list which includes virtually every employer, in practically every other profession on this planet. We are perfectly justified in taking up our stance, and we will not back down from it!

This publishing house of ours, New Dawn Publishers Ltd, was founded to give the very poorest, 'lower-class' students their chance to reap something, anything, from their years of study. If our policy is elitist and discriminatory, then so is that of any employer which asks for qualifications- a list which includes virtually every employer, in practically every other profession on this planet. We are perfectly justified in taking up our stance, and we will not back down from it!

Good luck taking this stance. I couldn't agree less with this comment. Although I wish anyone well who puts in the time and effort to gain a creative writing degree, my managerial job requires a degree. I don't have one. But I proved to my employers that my previous work experience amounted to more than a degree and I beat colleagues with a degree to gain my post.

Your viewpoint is flawed. You are turning away potential writers who don't have a degree but, even worse, in my view you're not offering anything more than self-publishing on Amazon can. But you're asking writers to jump through hoops so you don't have to.

This probably explains why you are sitting there crying out for authors.

But, regardless of my viewpoint, which is only my own, you have set up a business and, of course, you'll want to take on the most likely candidates. What better filtering system than a creative writing degree?



<Added>

But, if I had a creative writing degree, surely I'd want to aim higher? And, if I'd been on WriteWords and honed my craft though trial, error and feedback, I'd feel cheated by a company who couldn't be bothered (or possibly didn't know how) to sift through the chaff to find the wheat.

<Added>

Actually, I'm really quite cross about this. I know this is all my opinion, and people may not agree with my viewpoint, but why start a business and put yourself above the very people you need to take your business forward? Most businesses start at the bottom, learn and work their way up... just like writers do.

It seems as if you want to leap frog on the back of the hard work undertaken by people who have spent the time undertaking creative writing degrees. You're not offering anything more, and possibly a lot less, than most publishing houses, yet you're asking for people to come to you with writing perfection. I can't put in words what I really think...

In IT, too, specific qualifications are often wishlist but relevant experience and evidence of ability is core.

It does seem a little narrow and misguided as an approach to filtering the slushpile and the competition (in another thread) is equally exclusionary.

G

Jackie,

I can't help being small. I can't help being new. I can't help not having thousands of pounds of spare cash, I can't help having to start my business from scratch. I'm not asking authors to jump through hoops so I don't have to; I'm jumping through hoops so they don't have to. You say we're not offering our authors anything more than self-publishing on Amazon could- How can you say that? What's the reasoning behind your statement? And is there anything I could do about it, except taking out a big business loan, spending it all on bigging ourselves up and going bust within the month?

We have done everything we can, and will do everything it is in our power to do, but this is the real world. We do not publish people just because they have the degrees; we do still 'sift through the chaff to find the wheat'. But how much longer can we cling on to a futile existence doing so when none of you can be bothered to even give us a chance, when all we're recieving is chaff?

I was once a true optimist, a whole-hearted idealist. Any hope and optimism I once had about myself, my prospects, my ambitions and my endeavours has long since been eradicated; but however foolish, hopeless, idiotic it may be, I still have a soul, that greatest of character flaws that a businessman can possibly possess. The only real chance I have of raking in the clients and turning New Dawn into a financial success is by giving up on publishing books, and turning it into a literary agency- but the day we do, we will have lost any pretensions of our moral standpoint, and succumbed to our fate as nothing more than another soulless, bloodsucking parasite.

You're right, any student with a creative writing degree would want to aim higher. I did. Deep down, I still do. But I speak from many experiences when I say that, in this age of disillusionment, there comes a time when you have to stop staring up into the clouds, waiting around for someone to toss a rope down so you can climb up. However much you may deserve it. There comes a time when you have to take the few chances you can get, scaling whatever mountains, hills or cliffs you can, or you'll never get anywhere in life.

This is the last time I'll be posting on this thread. I tried. I've done all I can, but I can't change anything more than I already have. I can't be any more acquiescent than I have been. I can't stop all of you from hating me and my company; I can't stop you from willing, hoping, praying for my company to crash and burn. If there are any of you of there who can even be bothered to do anything more than spit on our good name and the service we have to offer, then I wish you well. If just one of you decided to give New Dawn Publishers a chance, and sent your work our way, then it would all be worthwhile. Going by the tone of this thread though, my hopes will be firmly anchored at ground zero. If not- well then, don't worry. With any luck, I'm sure those of you who'd love to see the vultures pecking away at New Dawn Publishers' carcass shouldn't have too long to wait...

No one wants your business to fail. Believe me, I've seen the repercussions of a business crashing and burning and wouldn't wish it on anyone. The question is about your business model.

If people choose to go to you - great. But people here are expressing doubt about your model.

As I said, I'm not ready to go to a publisher/agent yet. However, quite a few of the people who've responded to this thread are actually pretty good writers, but they don't count - they don't have the creative writing degree.

My question was asking you to look realistically at your business model and question its raison d'etre. Why are you doing it this way? You're a new business and you're not able to offer anything of real value to people with creative writing degrees. Don't make it harder for your business and pretend you're doing the creative writing world a service.

Good luck in the future. But don't stand on the top of a skyscraper when the rest of the world is walking on the ground.

For anyone considering this: there's also a discussion about this business over at Absolute Write and How Publishing Really Works is brilliant at this kind of thing. It's really important that anyone sending their work out is absolutely clear on what they are going to get and not get, and how it is all going to work.

The New Dawn website, for example, is focussed towards writers and not readers - hardly any publisher's websites do that. Which makes me ask - where are the readers going to come from? How are you going to market and sell your anthologies? What publishing, marketing and distribution experience do you have? Who will be judging this competition - why aren't their names and bios up on your website?


And I couldn't resist this:

Unless our publishing house becomes a success, unless other publishers take note of our success and decide to adopt our submissions policy, then it is surely inconcievable that any people from lower-class backgrounds will be able to pursue creative writing degrees at all. The only people who will be able to afford to take them will be upper-class toffs, the only universities with prestige levels high enough to entice enough of them in will be Oxford, Cambridge, KCL, UEA and a select few others, and the field of cutting-edge prose fiction will be very much poorer as a result.

What a massive big bag of hairy bollocks.

Your business model is up to you, but are you really saying that unless many other publishers only consider writing from people with academic qualifications that

inconcievable that any people from lower-class backgrounds will be able to pursue creative writing degrees at all

I'm from a lower class background and I have an MA in Creative Writing. There are tons of excellent writers from all backgrounds who don't have degrees at all.How are you going to prevent the upper-class toffs you've just insulted from entering your competition?

Hang on a minute I really don't get this!!

You're justifying your submission criteria as part of some class equality issue?

So - if I'm reading this right - you are going to right class inequality in publishing by adding an extra, arbitrary criteria in the form of a paid-for qualification that costs, at best, several thousand pounds, rather than accepting the best books on their own merits as most mainstream publishers do?

How is your approach more advantageous for "lower-class" writers than the previous process?

Honestly I have absolutely no problem with you setting whatever submission criteria you like. It's your business if you want to ignore amazing books from people without a degree.

But trying to justify this policy on class grounds seems to me to be - well - perverse at best.

I suppose there's two issues here - the crazy submissions criterion (I don't think New Dawn realise that they aren't 'employing' the writers that they publish) which is absolutely down to them. I wouldn't submit even though I qualify because I want my publisher to be passionate about selling my book, not about writing the wrongs of the class system and ensuring the survivial of creative writing degrees. Call me strange like that.

The other issue is if this is really the best opportunity for writers who do qualify. I've asked a few questions above about experience, plans for selling the books etc - be interested to know what the writers are.

<Added>

sorry, 'what the answers are' - see how badly I need an editor!

So - if I'm reading this right - you are going to right class inequality in publishing by adding an extra, arbitrary criteria in the form of a paid-for qualification that costs, at best, several thousand pounds, rather than accepting the best books on their own merits as most mainstream publishers do?

Flora, beautifully put!

I'm all for rewarding writers, but for writing a great and saleable book by whatever means seems best to each of us, not for having chosen one route, rather than another, to writing one.

As Hemingway said, "It's not of their business that you had to learn to write. Let them think you were born that way."