Let's try to clear a few things up and then perhaps move the debate on further.

Terry. Thanks for clearing that up. My difficulty was solely with being used as an example of someone giving a 'false impression', being misleading or not being upfront with the agent. That's why I said hoped the comments were general, as I had been perfectly upfront with the agent from the start.

That problem is now resolved as far as I'm concerned.

I then went on to form a reply to other things you had said. I offered up my 'credentials' because I thought it might be constructive to give some background as to why I think I may be able to complete the editing process faster than you suggested. This had nothing to do with the difficulty over being honest with the agent. I hadn't mentioned it in my original post because it wasn't particularly relevant to the specific question I posed.

And I certainly didn't do it to give the impression that I know it all - the book publishing world is obviously a very different animal from journalism (journalism is full of bruised egos, the writer is at the bottom of the pile, it's all driven by corporations and money and...hang on a minute, maybe it's not so different after all).

So, moving on, let's talk about deadlines. I've found with myself and writers I have commissioned that if you don't give yourself a tight deadline, you simply let the work fill the time available. Forcing yourself to knuckle down and work under pressure (within the timescale available to each individual) can produce as good if not better results. Tinkering away at something over too long a period just makes you jaded.

What do you think?

Sleek

Hey Sleek,

good to see you can take a bit of stick and come back unscathed - I hope you can give it too: mud slinging, fights, bitching, blatant slagging and thinly veiled gripes aren't entirely uncommon.

When I was in the games industry (software), I had to worked under constant (and often synthetic) deadlines. It left me a bit bitter, but often surprised at how much work can be done under pressure. Now that I have all the time I want, I can choose to take all year over a project if I want. But I don't. For whatever reason, I impose my own, tight, and unnecessary deadlines.

I don't always make them though.

Colin M

Hello Sleek, in another life I was an equity analyst and had to write research to very tight externally imposed deadlines. It was often a nightmare, but I always got it done. Now, writing my novel, I've set myself deadlines for each draft, as I find that gives me a sense of light at the end of the tunnel - by a certain date it will be finished, Alleluhiah!

Adele.

It was a book that is often mentioned on this site that made me think more seriously about deadlines: Stephen King's "On Writing". In it, he said it shouldn't take any longer than three months to bang out a first draft.

Mind you, when it comes to reworking and rewriting, I think you always know if it's simply "not there" yet, and that feeling should override any deadline.

Colin M

Generally, I'm a big fan of deadlines and externally imposed ones are often very effective. Look at the great writing that's come out of the writing sweatshops on series like Frasier, Bilko, Mash, Friends. On the other hand ... look at the crap that can come out of tight deadlines, too.

With novels, I feel you have to get the knack of both deadlining and letting it breathe. Yes, we all need to give ourselves targets, otherwise it's amazing how important it can become to watch all 37 frames of the World Snooker Championship. But, if you want a novel that does more than tick the right boxes of plot construction, convincing setting, etc, then you need to give it some time to cook without you (sorry, one - but 'one' sounds poncey after a while) constantly opening the oven door to see if it's done yet. This is letting the right brain come up with factor X, for want of a better word, which can be anything from one of your characters suddenly developing a totally suprising and enchanting aspect, to realising that actually this book would work better if you combined it with another book you started three years ago but couldn't finish.

Maybe this is the difference in possibility between journalism and novel writing. I'm not a journalist but from the outside I greatly admire the ability to work effectively under pressure. I'm a member of a narrative journalists' web group and love reading about how they work, although I rarely feel qualified to add anything. But a novel - a good novel, because there are plenty out there that do little more than fulfil a commercial deadline - can provide the space and time for magic to happen.


Terry

Sleek, as you probably know, Stendhal wrote Le Rouge et le Noir in 56 days. But then he was a genius!

Adele.

<Added>

Good job I'm not a journo - checking my facts I find it was La Chartreuse de Parme and he took 52 days!

Adele, nope. Didn't know that at all (mental note to self: get better read before posting more messages).

As for deadlines, well, I was playing devil's advocate a bit...

The importance of deadlines shifts with what you're writing.

I think travel literature need to be written fairly quickly because the book is based partly on recollection of place, of atmosphere, of people met. You can make all the notes you want, but it's better to get the thing done quickly before your memory of it gets hazy.

Fiction, I agree, is different. The trick is blending the art, the craft and the graft.

As you say Terry, some sort of deadline and a healthy dose of self-discipline is needed, but so is flexibility and the ability to let your work marinate for a while.

The question is, where does this process end and prevarication/self-indulgence begin?

Sleek

Sleek, the great thing about setting your own deadlines is that you can build some slack into them to allow for marination (nice metaphor) and the vagaries of the rest of your life. However, I still find it difficult to escape from the nagging inner voice of the protestant work ethic...

Adele.

where does this process end and prevarication/self-indulgence begin?

That is the question, isn’t it. Add to that mix the fear of rejection and it’s a wonder we send anything out at all.

In novel-writing, a deadline is only helpful if it’s realistic, otherwise it becomes a threat. Finishing a manuscript by a specific date is not a measure of any quality of the work or of the writer. But nor are years of endless rewrites.

Self-indulgence is when we fool ourselves that we have a best-seller on our hands, but we’re choosing to keep it to ourselves for a while. Prevarication is when we decide it’s all crap and needs a total rewrite.

I go through both of these phases several times a week. I suspect most of us do. It ends when the need for a verdict overcomes the fear of rejection.

However, speaking of deadlines, and thinking further along the process, I have a couple of friends who are published novelists. They tell me that, once you have a contract with a publisher, they do set deadlines – and they expect you to stick to them. They have to budget for publication costs a long time in advance so, when they tell you they plan to publish your novel on a certain date, you’d better damned well deliver or they’ll not be happy with you.

Perhaps we should think positively and start practicing now.

Dee

How about this for a deadline?

NOW.

Start writing it RIGHT NOW, stop looking at this thread, Sleek.

Not tomorrow, not next week, not next month. NOW.
Call in sick for work until you've finished it, give it the once and twice over, make the necessary changes and shoot it out there.

Don't return to this thread until you've finished.

What are you waiting for, you've just wasted 1 minute. GO!

Oh yes, then there's the nagging outer voice of our very own Jewish Italian-American car dealer/CIA operative. Meet the Family with de Niro is on telly tonight, Adam. I'll be thinking of you

Adele.

Adele, stop watching tv and finish writing City Of Dreams. NOW.

On a side note: I just had a beautiful French client and can I just say that the French accent on a woman is sexier than anything in this world. Okay, the British accent on a woman is pretty cool, but the French is just downright seductive. She made me lose my train of thought, almost.

Adam, I like your NCND tactic; you have been well trained. As for your cheese eating surrender monkey siren, put some Camembert in your ears, tie yourself to the mast, and you'll be perfectly safe.

Bon soir, mon brave,

Adèle

Ooooh, Adele, you have me tingling with your enhanced vowels.

My philosophy equals what we say in the car business when the customer tells you they want to wait for the '06 or '07 model to arrive:

What are you waiting for? When cars fly?

I'm with you on all three counts Silver.

The take an action now and the French and British accents. Of course a nice Southern Belle accent is pretty nice too. ‘Course to people here, we are the ones with the accents.

I think I sense another installment from you in the memoir category involving a French woman…

Brian.