Euclid, as I said most editors both in the UK and USA are employees of their publishers, at least for the bigger ones. With some small presses, the editor may also be the publisher. There are ways of submitting direct to editors, at least a query to begin with. But editors are understandably resistant to letting everyone know how! Hence, many large publishers give no submission guidance or state categorically that they will not look at unsolicitied submissions.

It's not true that in the UK submitting manuscripts is exclusively the agents' territory, even if agents may like to sometimes give this impression. Professionalism comes in here again, i.e. if you are a writer who knows you have a publishable talent, and the professionalism to go with it, then editors will want see a sample of your stuff. But having the required ability and the knowledge to submit what to whom is part of the professionalism. The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook gives details of publishers; however, don't be surprised to see that most of the bigger ones tell you they don't want anything sent in by you! The US site, Publishers' Marketplace is an excellent source of information but it will cost you $20 a month (which, if you think about it, is not much for a professional to pay).

I don't think manuscript agencies like Cornerstones are frowned upon in the USA: they have their own with similar reputations, both good and bad. But you may be mixing up publishers editors here with ms agencies' 'readers' - not helped by the fact some ms agencies insist on calling their readers 'editors' even when they're not. Most ms agencies don't actually edit your ms: the common pratice is to write a report on it, charged per thousand words. Which can be expensive, e.g. Cornerstones currently charge, I believe, around £8 per thousand words.

Terry

Quote: The US site, Publishers' Marketplace is an excellent source of information but it will cost you $20 a month

An excellent source of US information? or UK and US info?

It has both US and UK information, although more for the US obviously, since it's a US site. But then, there's nothing to stop you submitting to the USA if your book fits with a publisher's needs. You get daily updates in which, amongst a wealth of other info, you're shown all the deals made that day: which editor at which publisher bought what book, and from which agent if an agent is involved. It's sorted by genre, country or any other way you want to do it. This alone helps to give you a good idea of what kind of stuff is being bought and by whom. It also provides very good contact information.

Terry

Great! I'm off to subscribe. Now where did I leave my wallet?

Alex Hazel:
Totally agree with you on the whole business aspect of it. And only in the publishing industry does the 'don't expect to make money from your writing' viewpoint have any legs.

Freebird: Excellent critique and seriously got me thinking.

Terry: Excellent comments as always.

Just to let you all know, I had the meeting with my agent.

Have taken everything except fiction back from them, despite what the contract or Authors Society say is possible and renegotiated the contract. I now have a fiction project I'm completing. I have sent them a list of professional questions on the marketing of that project (which I'll post here in due course).

I'll also post the amendments/points from the last meeting once I'm back on my normal computer. It may be useful to anyone else in a similar position.

Also, this just up from The Rejectionist:
http://www.therejectionist.com/2011/01/some-inappropriate-agent-behaviors.html

So these were the main contract points renegotiated at the last meeting:

1. Non-exclusivity – the author can use other agents for different specialities, genres, e.g. TV, fiction for children (for example) as and when required.

2. Agency commissions will be derived from projects that the author places specifically through them (in writing) and that they make direct sales on.

3. Projects the author pitches or sells himself will not incur commission from the agency.

4. The author will keep the agency informed of projects that he is pitching elsewhere.

5. The agency will keep the author informed and up to date on who has been pitched, when, and provide supporting material (commission list/rejections).

I hope this helps some of you out there.

Best,

I'd be interested to know how the agent took the request to renegotiate the contract. Did he take a lot of persuading/arguing, or just accept it as either that or being fired?

Alex

Hi Alex. They were very open to it and took little persuading.

To be honest they knew surprisingly little about their own contracts and what the various clauses meant. From what I can see (from research done before meeting) most agency contracts are simple boiler plate agreements that ask for as much in the agency's favour as possible.

If they are presenting you with such a contract and they are professional negotiators, as any agent should be, then they should expect to negotiate.

Always remember to present yourself in a calm and professional manner when you negotiate.

Work out the following beforehand:
1. What your ideal contract is.
2. What the industry standard is.
3. What your walk away point is.

Aim for 1, settle for 2, walk away at 3.

UPDATE: I have now terminated my contract with the agency.

After reading everything I could, talking to as many people as possible, the strategy I finally employed was to treat them as you would any employee: three strikes and they're out.

So, despite contract re-negotiations, highlighting the areas that were a problem, then proposing an implementing strategies for dealing with these areas - the problems didn't go away. Specifically poor communication and bad attitude to conducting a business relationship.

I thought it better to break it off than carrying on with new projects. My other half says I'm already more relaxed and less stressed and I can now get on with writing and pitching without worrying about holding the hand of an agent who feels it's beyond or beneath them to behave in a professional manner.

Now for the bold, brave world of life without an agent. I get to meet, talk and hopefully work with the people I want to and write projects without the agent-negative filter.

Come on!

<Added>

Missing d, boo!

Well done, Frank. Not surprised you feel more relaxed and less stressed. Agents are supposed to make writers feel clear to get on with their writing, not cause them stress and aggravation.

I had a similar situation with my last agent. To be fair, when she took me on I suffered from the common writer attitude, which is to think you've found someone to take care of you. When I woke up to the fact that all this meant was she felt free to treat my career in exactly the way that suited her, I did something like you did: held a meeting with her and explained what I wanted from my career and what I wanted her to do to help me. Although she agreed to all this, it wasn't too long afterwards that we decided to part company. For me, the lesson was how vital it is to establish right at the outset exactly what you want from your agent.

Once you get that contract, you'll be in a position to decide if and how an agent can assist you.

Terry

Hi Terry,

And thanks. Good to know I'm not the only one that does the following:

when she took me on I suffered from the common writer attitude, which is to think you've found someone to take care of you. When I woke up to the fact that all this meant was she felt free to treat my career in exactly the way that suited her

I think that attitude is maintained/believed by agents/editors as well which doesn't really help those starting out.

If I had this time again, I'd do the following:

1. Determine exactly what I want from a particular agency (which genres, pitching methodology, exact commission structure - e.g. only projects I put through them, not all projects).
2. Be specific about how our business relationship should be conducted.
3. Vet agency contract and negotiate the above before signing.
4. If the warning signs ever start appearing, address them immediately with agent, then three strikes and they're out.
5. And, most importantly, never let them maintain the illusion that I'm asking their permission to do what I want with my business.

Big thanks to everyone else who wrote in on this thread. All your input has been invaluable.

It might be worth adding that it isn't only in writing that agents think they're running the show. IT contract agents, too, have a tendency to think like that, and to act as agents for the buyer rather than the seller. The main difference is that, at least in the writing industry, agents generally understand the nature of what they're trying to sell, and can talk nuts and bolts with the person producing the goods. IT contract agents, for the most part, don't and can't.

Alex

Alex, I'm sure you're right. But maybe with agents this situation is more pronounced, in that they have both buyers and sellers telling them they're a vital cog in the machine: publishers because they're only too pleased to shift the slush pile to someone else and writers because they tend to be less informed than agents and therefore succumb rather easily to their air of authority and control.

Now, of course, agents too are getting fed up with the slush. So some manuscript agencies are trying to set themselves up as gatekeepers to the agents! And a lot of writers are too insecure to see through it. For example, we currently have a ms agency offering to run Q & A sessions on this site - not about what a manuscript agency does, but about what publishers, editors and agents do. They would clearly love to be given the same slush responsibilities agents now have, but hopefully the two barriers to this will hold firm, i.e. few writers (surely!) would submit a ms to a party that is filtering for a party that is filtering for the people who can actually buy your book; that and the fact ms agencies make their money by charging the author direct, something agents cannot do. But of course this won't stop them finding ways to imply/promise they can get your book in front of someone with power, for a fee of course.

Terry

Maybe writers should start bidding to do the slush filtering

Now there's an idea Alex, then nobody would do any writing. Apart from maybe ghosts, who would then become the gatekeepers for the next generation, but then they could farm it out to English grads on elance.com and we could all become one in the never ending ponzi publishing pyramid.

No wonder the first Harry Potter was picked up by the publisher's daughter and not the publisher!