Apologies in advance for the long post. I wrote a YA novel about 5 years ago. Sent it out to 4 agents, got one request for the full and it was a no. Said the plot didn't quite work. So I had a report done, which was quite critical, and said a lot of stuff that didn't ring true to me. But later after an Arvon course I saw a way to add in a sub plot and got the word count up from 27,000 which I knew was too short to 48,000. Got another report done which was very complimentary and pointed out some minor problems which I (hopefully) fixed.

Sent it out to a few more agents. Another 2 more requests for fulls. One never got back, and the other loved many things about it but felt the plot didn't quite work and the MC was rather unsympathetic. Suggested major revision which I felt would have resulted in a different book to the one I wanted to write. Gave up at this point for a year - life took over.

Bit the bullet again about a month ago. Have sent it out to ten agents. Still waiting to hear from 8, but had another request for the full. Agent seemed to love the first chapters, but got the response yesterday. It was a no. Said some things that completely contradicted previous comments, but did say she felt the MC was rather unsympathetic.

Feeling really stymied at the moment. Each response seems to have different reasons for rejection, apart from the 'unsympathetic MC' which has come up twice now. Unfortunately this is very much a 'psychological' novel about a girl who needs to do a lot of growing up, so by making her more initially 'sympathetic' I'd be changing the whole premise of the novel!

What do I do? I'm not getting any 'aha' moments from most of these comments, so have no idea what or how to change things. Had two written reports done already. One part of me says keep sending it out, but another says if there's a major flaw I should fix it now before 'using up' all the rest of the children's agents.

Any advice hugely appreciated. And yes, I am getting on with my next WIP in the meantime!

Unfortunately agents don't like unsympathetic mcs, the rest is largely subjective. Unless you are prepared to rewrite the mss to change that, I'd advise moving on and concentrating on the next book, because getting requests for Fulls is brilliant. It means you can write well. You just have to find the right combination of character and plot to interest an agent, and that might take a few completed mss - that's why they say 'preseverence' is the key to publication.


- NaomiM

Hi Emma

Exactly how 'unsympathetic' is she? Could she be given some softening traits?

How about posting a chapter or two for critting?

that's why they say 'preseverence' is the key to publication.

But it's hard to decide whether to persevere with changes to a 'completed' project or persevere with the WIP. If the latter, then Naomi's typo also applies: pre-severence from the first novel helps you move on with the second.

Jan

Getting all those requests for fulls must mean something positive, so don't lose heart.

Some thoughts about ignoring some of the advice and keeping that unsympathetic character:

Perhaps readers would be more accepting of an unsympathetic character if they were given hints (I don't necessarily mean explicit ones) at an early stage that the events that were taking place were going to effect some positive change in that character before the end of the narrative.

Would an initially unsympathetic character become more acceptable if she were made more interesting? There's no reason why a reader cannot be fascinated by an unsympathetic character. Could she be given idiosyncrasies or even eccentricities that would make the reader want to follow her regardless? The danger is of having an unsympathetic character who is dull. One who is fascinating could make the grade. Are you perhaps relying too much on what happens to her and on what she does at the expense of making the reader interested in the person herself? It might not be too difficult to add such elements without basic structural change.

On the other hand, if she already is fascinating in her own right, ignore the above!

Chris

The "unsympathetic MC" thing is really baffling. As Naomi says, it's absolutely crucial, especially in commercial fiction, and yet in some ways it's also subjective. And it's not the same as an MC being nice or good in an obvious way: Tracey Beaker a case in point, I guess.

I'd suggest the crucial question is:

Did you mean to make her unsympathetic?

1) If you did - if her becoming sympathetic is part of the story - then I'd agree that you've got a problem, because the reader has got to like her from the off, or why would they bother to read?

Can you shift that un-sympathetic-ness into 'lovably flawed' territory without changing its fundamental? How does Jacqueline Wilson do it, for example? We can be exasperated by a character but still care about what happens to her.

And finally - and obviously I may be way off beam here - you describe her as "having a lot of growing up to do". The un-grown-up aren't automatically unsympathetic, and we can still appreciate and be compelled by the process of them maturing. So what is it about her immaturity which makes her dislikeable? Can you find more likeable immaturities?

2) But if you find her sympathetic, and are surprised that others don't, then maybe it's similar to a common problem with settings: somewhere is so familiar to you that you're seeing it already when you write, so don't realise that you haven't given the reader who doesn't know the place enough to 'see it'. What you see/understand/forgive/sympathise with in her just isn't getting across to readers.

But forgive me, as this might sound extremely impertinent (in both the modern sense of 'rude' and the original sense of 'irrelevant'. You say she's got a lot of growing up to do, which makes me wonder if your purpose in writing the book is in some, perhaps covert, way didactic. In other words, is there an undercurrent of dislike/disapproval in how the MC's portrayed at the beginning? Is that coming across to readers? You may not have meant it that way in the least, but might that be how it's being read?

But as everyone's said, it not may not be the time to disentangle it all. You may only discover the answers once you're the far side of something else. You can obviously write, so I'm sure there are solutions. Just maybe not at the moment.

Emma

Thank you already for so many thoughtful responses and so many helpful comments.

In answer to you all, no, I don't feel the MC is an unsympathetic character. I love her! She's put in a difficult situation and finds herself up against someone who is quite provoking, but she has to find a way to accept both the reality and her distortions of it. I hope it doesn't feel didactic, but she is a kind of Holden Caulfied character in that you (theoretically) sympathise with her but can see why other characters find her behaviour difficult. I would entirely see her as 'lovably flawed', (great phrase!) but unfortunately, not everyone seems to agree.

I am 2/3 way through my next WIP, but it doesn't feel the same, somehow. I think my problem is that the MC of book one is someone I can really identify with (by which you can read, yes, that I am chronically immature/intermittently difficult, etc). I just love writing in her voice, it comes so much more naturally than the more serious tone I've had to take in WIP2.

I'm down to 2 choices - try and revise, but to do that I need a road map of where I'm trying to get to, so difficult when you get conflicting feedback. Or keep sending it out and hope that someone loves that MC as much as I do. Or give up (okay, that's 3 choices but doesn't feel like much of a choice at all).

Keep subbing it, and keep writing the next one, but as far as unsympathetic characters are concerned, it's far, far, easier to 'sell' an MC who's charming but flawed, or funny but flawed, than one the reader dislikes from the opening chapters (unless you're A S Byatt, The Childrens Book). It's not only the Agent who needs to love it enough to champion it, but also the commissioning editor and the marketting dept, and maybe others along the way. That's a tall order.
The reader will be in the company of that character through the whole of the book, it's not enough to say 'yes, but she'll grow on you' if they dislike her enough that they're not going to get past the first chapter.

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The thing is, no-one says this has to be your debut novel. As authors like AS Byatt illustrate, it's easier to get novels with unsympathetic characters published once you're established in the industry.

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- debute novels are a breed apart.

Just a thought, but are you able to put into words what it is about her that you find so sympathetic? Can you think of any ways of tweaking those characteristics to make her appeal to more people?

Putting it bluntly, when viewed objectively, does she come across as a bit of a brat? If so, is there any way of making her bratty but wittily sharp-tongued with it?

I'm not a YA writer, so feel free to disregard the above if it simply won't work. I just wondered if there was some way you could balance out what people see as unsympathetic, while not tinkering too much with the substance of your novel?

All the best with it anyway

I think my problem is that the MC of book one is someone I can really identify with (by which you can read, yes, that I am chronically immature/intermittently difficult, etc). I just love writing in her voice, it comes so much more naturally than the more serious tone I've had to take in WIP2.

I may be wrong here, but just a thought...

Is your novel semi-autobiographical? Even if the plot is not, is your MC basically you? Although I think most writers have a little of themselves in most of the main characters they write, too much of themselves, or too much of the plot being like your own real life, can actually make the fiction worse IMO.

Drawing on real life is good; sticking to it is bad.

I'm probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but what you said just made me wonder....?

Deb

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I mean, if she's too much like you then obviously you're so close to her that you may find it hard to see her through others' (readers' eyes.

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Damn that close-bracket that turns into a winky smiley. I didn't mean to put a smiley there. It's a WW bug afaict.

Ok, so you've had 2 agents say the MC was unsympathetic. 2. That's a very small number. So small that I think it would be a bad idea to start changing the manuscript to suit their tastes. If you've had any other reads of the manuscript from crit partners have any of them felt the MC was unsympathic? I'd wait and see how the other 8 respond and maybe even send to a few more agents and then reassess.

The other thing I wonder is whether your novel might possibly be more adult than YA despite having a young MC. I think unsympathetic narrators are more tolerated in adult fiction than YA and perhaps you can find a way to push the book into that territory? I recently read a book called Mathilda Savitch by Philip Lodato where the first person MC is absolutely awful--actually sets out to do harm to people, things etc. as a way to deal with her grief. It's an adult book, but a very good example of initially unlikeable yet very interesting narrator.

Also, congratulations on all the full requests from agents! It's a really good sign that you're on the right track, that your writing is good and that you're getting close. Good luck!

I do agree that two isn't a lot of feedback to go on if you disagree (which is different from the kind of feedback which lights up something which you entirely recognise). Characters can divide opinions so strongly - I've had diametrically opposed views of the same one, from different people, so Carol's right, you do have to go carefully.

But distance is useful too: sometimes you can only see what people mean when you've got some distance of time and/or writing something else.

Emma

This is instinct not wisdom, but I'd say based on the feedback you've had, that you just need to keep sending it out. Lots of people are asking for the full. That's a good sign. They are all finding different reasons to reject it. I actually think that is another good sign. It suggests their reasons are subjective. If the writing is good and the rejections subjective, you just need to dig in there until you get a subjective, 'Yes.' Someone who likes tricky, edgy heroines. There will be someone who does, and they're who you need to sell the book with passion.

As to unsympathetic heroine. It may be that you haven't pitched her right. However difficult someone is, we need ot see their vulnerability underneath or their innate strength despite what life has chucked at them, to sympathise with them. Or we need to be hooked and horrified that such a monster walks the earth (Hannibal Lecter, Barb Covett) Ask yourself why the reader wants to follow her journey. The reason doesn't matter but there must be one which has reasonably broad appeal, or not enough people will read the book.

I think it sounds intriguing, and that you're off to a good start. What you say about comments chiming makes sense. With the caveat that if no critical feedback chimes then maybe you need to listen harder. But if some criticism in the past has been eye-openingly helpful, then you know the problem isn't being able to deal with criticism.

It's not folly to stick firm with the book you wrote if you know it works. It's greater folly, I think, to tinker and change it until it's lost its essence. Maybe send to 10 more agents and see what happens. If you start getting regular similar feedback, then take it seriously.

I agree with Cherys and others, Emma, and also wanted to pick up on what you said about 'using up agents'. You won't, you know. Chances are you will forge good contacts with some that will be useful for next time in worst case scenario...ie having to give up on this one [which I definitely DO NOT think you should do until you have exhausted all of them]

I really don't think for a second that agents think, 'Oh I rejected her once so anything else she writes will be dismissed.' Quite the opposite, perhaps, because they will know you are serious.

Why don't you try editors direct? That way, you're cutting out a level of interference, i.e. if an agent suggests re-writing, all you're doing is changing your work to suit the middle man. But if an editor suggests it, you're already on your way to possibly negotiating a contract. I don't understand why writers put so much stock in a request for a full ms from an agent: it means next to nothing, really. The book's still got to be sold. But a request for a full from an editor does mean something, even if she doesn't eventually take it on. At the very least, you'll have established a contact in a publishing house - the people who can actually buy your book - which can be very useful for future projects.

Terry

Such helpful responses, thank you.

CarolS - I need to develop some crit partners. The problem is that the agents objections seem to rest on problems with the whole story arc, so perhaps not discernible in a few initial chapters. And it's a tall order to ask someone to read 48,000 words!

Interestingly I read Matilda Savitch too, via the amazon Vine programme. I really enjoyed it, gave it a good review, I seem to remember, with the caveat that the ending seemed rather bleak. I guess that what puts it firmly in the category of adult fiction, even though the MC is only 13 (the same age as mine) Interestingly, I did like her from the get-go, so perhaps I have too much tolerance of unsympathetic behaviour. Or rather I find it forgivable, I suppose.

Emma and Cherys, I totally agree about feedback and being open to it. The problem is when the feedback seems to be suggesting you write a completely different kind of book. One book report made a number of suggestions where I just thought, yes, she's right, and duly went off and did them. Another time I was talking to Malorie Blackman on an arvon course about how I thought it needed a sub-plot and I couldn't think of one and she just paused and said, "why don't you do this...." And it was perfect, just brilliant. (So I have Malorie to thank for some parts of the book!) Feedback like that is wonderful. Less wonderful is they WTF stuff (as in 'what the f**k', the kind of response that makes you feel like you're living on a different planet to the rest of humanity :-)

Mind you, the good thing about being a regular amazon reviewer is that you are constantly surprised just how wildly people's opinions can differ about the same book. It's really eye-opening... I've actually had 'hate comments' from people when I've criticised certain popular novels.

Caroline - you're right. It's all tied in with wanting this book published far more than I do the current WIP. Short-sighted, I know. The MC and I just need to get over each other!

Terry - I agree, getting an agent is only half the battle and I really wouldn't bother but for the fact that having one seems to open up access to more publishers. I never bothered for my picture book and it didn't matter a jot, but I think things have changed a lot since then.

Debac - I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. I definitely have some of the qualities of an unsympathetic author ;-) And WW seems to have stuck in a winking face here too!