Emma just to briefly correct something - I said that many comp FIRST READERS were pink cardigan clad old ladies, NOT the WINNERS. these are the people one has to get by to get through to the real judges and often their tastes runs to the good mainstream but safe style stories. nothing wrong with that but you won't find in comps where exciting truly literary writing is done. try journals for that.

Jai, yes, I take the point. Maybe we should demand that competitions are filtered before WE bother with THEM.

If only that were possible. I don't enter comps any more, I have done a few in the past but now realize my work is not safe enough. Nor more importantly immediate enough. It's a choice I have made I guess, not to tame what i write for publication.

Emma,

I agree with a lot of your points. Competition in writing has increased hugely in the past 10 years, due mainly to the widespread availability of PCs which has greatly facilitated the writing process. Certainly the volume of writing has increased but probably the overall quality level has not changed. This makes it very difficult for any individual writer to get noticed in the crowd. I don't think it's possible to introduce any other filtering system (after all, isn't that part of what the agent's role is?)

I agree with opening up the field to all writers rather than narrowing it down but there could be a little bit more self-filtering. I have been a member of a few writing groups now and, in my opinion, a significant number of writers think that mastery of grammar is an optional extra, something they will tidy up at the end of the process or something that a line editor will handle. It drives me crazy. It's like a singer who thinks that being unable to distinguish between notes is no obstacle to being a successful singer. It's so basic.

If I were an agent I would immediately reject a manuscript as soon as I came across the first basic grammar error (unless of course it's a deliberate one - you can tell the difference). My feeling is that if a writer can't handle the most basic writing skills then I would have no confidence in their ability to produce a complex piece of work that is a novel.

Also writers should not submit half-finished novels. They need to believe in their work enough to see it through to the end. I can understand that a writer may need support, enouragement, advice in the course of the project but there are other means of getting that. It's detrimental to everyone concerned (the writers themselves, other writers and agents) to clog up the system with work that isn't properly thought through.

Sorry for going on.

Ashlinn - I couldn't agree with you more. Including about the word processor - maybe manual typewriters were the best filter of all. Whenever people rave about being rejected, I sympathise hugely - I've been there, goodness knows! - but I also think, 'Listen duckie, maybe it's just not good enough. Finish the novel, revise it at least twice, then go and find someone you and the publishing world both respect, and ask for an honest opinion. You might get a nasty but necessary surprise'.

I'm going to sound like Grumpy of Tunbridge Wells now. The big dip in teaching boring old punctuation, spelling and grammar that happened in the 60s and 70s, has combined with the worship of originality, to destroy respect for craft among would-be writers. Even on WW (and I know that posting things is half-way to conversation and doesn't quite count as writing) I'm amazed how people don't bother to spell and punctuate well enough to make what they want to say clear. It makes me wonder what their work's like. I'm not talking about writing in the vernacular, or in an experimental or avant-garde way - that's great. But you have to know the rules to break them fruitfully.

Very best of luck with the novel!

Emma

All of this stuff people are saying is based on personal experience and personal opinions, the same way as the rejction slips/responses are just one agent's or reader's personal opinions. Sometimes when I read threads like this it feels like people are continually searching for one objective truth or one miracle answer that will be the key to publishing success - but of course, no such thing exists. I'm not saying it's not useful to read these threads because they can give you ideas on changing the approach you take with agents, etc. But please everyone just bear in mind there's no one right answer to the question of 'how do I get an agent?' or 'how do I get published?'. Whatever 'rules' you get told, there's always exceptions!

Dee, maybe you should pitch the filtering idea on BBC 2's 'Dragon's Den' (My flatmate's in front of the dragons right now as I speak!).

Cath

How right you are, Cath. There isn't a right answer, because looking for an agent/publisher/whatever isn't about working to syllabus that will mean you pass the exam, it's an ongoing act of faith that there is a place where what you do, and what the world wants to read, coincide. And for some of us, maybe there just isn't such a place.

In the greater scheme of things writing the best possible stuff is what matters, not having it in a 3-for-2 in Waterstone's. The difficulty is that we're all human, and want our stuff to be liked and read, and the system hasn't come up with enough other ways of getting it read yet.

The only conclusion I've come to is that since I'm so staggeringly arrogant as to think that a single person in the world will be interested in what I have to say, I had also better be staggeringly humble in accepting that if enough people aren't interested, then maybe it's me, not them, who is (are) wrong about the value of my work

Emma

Well said, Cath. Btw, if your (extremely brave!) flatmate is a woman, they might be interested in this story about how banks charge female entrepreneurs higher rates for borrowing - it was certainly news to me:
http://www.thisislondon.com/news/business/articles/timid400793?source=This%20is%20Money

Back to the original thread, I agree that the ascent of the PC must be behind the exponential growth of manuscripts. One of my friends told me how, years ago, he wrote his academic book, which has lots of footnotes, on a typewriter. It made me feel very guilty/grateful for the ease with which I can revise my novel in a Word document.

Adele.

Cheers, Adele. It is a woman. Interesting article. I'm practically sitting on my mobile now to see how she's done. Am I going home to champagne or tears tonight?!

Mind you, even starting out in my former journalism days, I was actually using an electronic typewriter to begin with! How did I manage?!

Cath

Things are only going to get worse. Voice recognition is a little clunky at the mo (of what I've played with - but I'm a geordie, I don't think we're compatible) but once it's an acceptable alternative to keyboard, you are going to have all manner of people dictating their life stories and letting the computer sort out grammar and punctuation. The only difficulty a writer will face will be walking to the post office. - This is probably the reason most places don't accept emailed manuscripts.

Colin M

Funnily enough, some agents actually prefer an emailed ms - Robin Wade for example.

I started my journalistic days on a manual typewriter. Whemn I first began writing ful length novels, it was on an electric typewriter. Then I progressed to an electrronic typewriter, with a tiny screen, which stored on diskettes but no hard disks. I had to stpre each chapter seperately. Over th eyears I progressed to a full scale PC!

The thing is, I would always have written, no matter what the technology. But I don't think I'd have managed a full novel in even four times the time, because my first draft is always packed with typos - I never correct as I write as I need to keep in the flow, and my fingers fall over each other. And secondly, I revise and revise and revise, and the thought of typing draft after draft fills me with horror. But if I had to, I'd do it.

I agree with Ashlinn; it seems to me that everyone these days thinks they can write a novel or at least their life story. I can't tell you how many times people have told me they have a wonderful story, and I should write it, it would be an instant bestseller.

Cath, what’s BBC 2’s Dragon’s Den? It sounds interesting.

Ashlinn, your point about grammar made me wonder. Where do we draw the line between bad grammar and authorial style? The reason I ask is that I went to see Joanne Harris last night. This is the second time I've seen her but last night was organised by my local writing group, so much of the talk was about the mechanics of writing and getting published. She said she has tremendous disputes with her editors over what they call grammatical errors and she calls her authorial style. She, of course, is at a point in her career where she has the confidence to reject editorial suggestions… but what about the rest of us? How, exactly, can an editor tell the difference if they only read a few paragraphs?

I do wonder if we’re close to the stage where agents will expect writers to approach them through professional editing services – the theory being that, if we’re serious enough about our work, we’ll pay someone to edit it and either refer it to an agent on our behalf or tell us gently that it stinks.

Dee

It’s funny how the name Robin Wade keeps cropping up on here. I think he must be particularly sympathetic towards new writers. He was one of the first agents I approached, and I’ll never forget his gentle let-down.

I wrote my first novel longhand - in pencil so that I could erase and rewrite as I was going. Thought that was pretty damned clever! When I finally decided it was as good as I could get it I typed it up on a portable typewriter, making a carbon copy, (whatever happened to carbon paper manufacturers?) and using about a gallon of tippex. I sent it off to a publisher and, after about four months, they sent it back to me with a two page letter explaining why they couldn’t take it, suggesting ways to improve the manuscript and offering to read it again – or anything else I cared to send them. I didn’t follow it up. I stuck the ms in a cupboard and forgot about it.

We all have these moments, don’t we, that we can look back on and say - yes, that was the biggest screw-up in my life!

Dee

More info here, Dee:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dragonsden/

Cath

agree Ashlinn. I only joined in when I saw Emma had missed out journals as a possible filter when to me it's a stronger filter. but then it depends on what sort of fiction as agent you are looking for. But journals is equal at least with comps.