This is not really a dilemma, as I think I have reached a conclusion, I just wondered if anyone else had found themselves in a similar situation.

Last year I completed my first novel. I wrote it purely for my own entertainment and with no thought that anyone else would ever read it, let alone that I might submit it for publication. After much editing and revising my novel was approximately 220000 words in length and it was the very best novel I was capable of writing.

I was eventually talked into letting a friend (okay, I know, not the best judge) read the completed manuscript. She loved it and said I should think about submitting it for publication, a thought that had never previously occured to me.

I did some research on the internet and spoke to someone who works as a professional writing tutor and he offered to read a couple of chapters. He spoke very favourably of the writing but, when I told him the length of the novel, burst out laughing and said no chance, no way! According to him (and what I could find on the internet seemed to support this) a debut novel should be somewhere between 80 and 110 thousand words (which I feel is arbitary and yet I understand the cost implications of printing etc).

My problem is that the story I wanted to tell needs (in my opinion) all 220 thousand of its words. However, bowing to greater experience I sat down and re-worked the whole novel and, after much heartache, ended up with a manusrcipt of some 120000 words. I was not happy with this "finished" draft as I felt it was no longer my story. Nevertheless, after so much work I decided to submit it and I did some research and picked 6 agents to whom I sent a synopsis (with much help from NaomiM) and the opening chapters. It was very gratifying to recieve three requests for the full manuscript, even if, in all three cases, my novel was ultimately rejected. I haven't sent it out to any further agents.

I'm curious to know what other people would do. I have had a lot of positive comments about my work but I honestly feel that I have compromised the story by trying to conform to a "required" length. Would anyone continue to send out a novel with which they were so unhappy?

My personal feeling is that I should restore the novel to the 220000 words, keep it for my own amusement, forget publication and move on to a fresh project. My dilemma is that, until I decide what to do with this novel, it remains an unfinished project and I seem to be struggling to devote my energy to anything new.

Sorry for the length of this post but does anyone have a similar experience? Not necessarily regarding length, but, I suppose, in compromising integrity to "conform".

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Mand

Um, only 6 submissions and requests for 3 fulls, and you're giving up now?!
You know, this is why published authors, when asked the secret of their success say 'perseverence, perseverence, perseverence'.
Howabout, next time you're asked for a Full you send the original 220K word mss? What have you got to lose?






<Added>

...or the first 120K words with a note at the end saying to contact you for the final half.

Mand, I have to agree with NaomiM, I think you should keep trying with a publisher, from what I have read of your work, it is outstanding and just to stop now, doesn't seem right. I appreciate that it is your work but it is worth pushing on with.
My thoughts for what it's worth.
Jim.

Mand, I feel that the writing tutor you speak of was being a little narrow-minded if, having read only a couple of chapters, he laughed off the idea of its full length being 220,000 words. As great a figure as Isaac Asimov used to say that stories come in their own length. Have you ever read Clan of the Cave Bear? It must be that long, at least, and was Jean M. Auel's debut novel.

So I would suggest that you trust your instincts, and begin touting your original story around a few more agents and/or publishers. What have you got to lose? And just imagine being able to tell that tutor I Told You So

Alex

Yes, that stuckness, when the fate of something is undecided, is really pernicious.

Naomi's made a very good point, but though I know you've reached a conclusion, I'm going to do some thinking aloud.

I think the real question is, if you were offered a contract for the short version, and people were waving the book and congratulating you, would you still wish it hadn't been published? I know people who are ashamed of one of their published books, and it's really sad - even if it doesn't show in sales or, shall we say, a downward career path.

If you'd be happy to go on trying to get it published, I'd be tempted to keep sending the short version out, while getting on with a new novel, since three fulls from six subs is an extremely encouraging hit rate.

If you really, truly believe that the short version will never be a book you can be proud of, I'd send out the long one in Naomi's 'what have you got to lose?' spirit, as long as you won't find the rejections knock you off course while you write Two (In which case, don't send it out. Two is top priority while you're writing it.) Two, you can conceive of from the first as that 75,000-130,000 bracket which most published books are. Then you get subbing that.

You'll learn vast amounts in writing Two, and you can then go back to your original ideas for One, with both more distance and that new knowledge, and re-work it, or write the same ideas and characters from scratch without reference to the original (which is my strategy, personally, but may not be yours). You may find that you can both bring it in at some realistic kind of length (which could be more than 120,000, if it's true that every word is earning it's keep), and re-find the spirit of the original long version. The best way to 'conform' - the only honest and satisfying way - is to think of a project which will naturally tend towards the criteria you're trying to fit, so you can write honestly and in a way which is true to you. If you want to write a sonnet, start thinking sonnet-shaped ideas. The fall of Rome isn't going to work, but the moment your lover leaves forever would...

Or is it just that it's different from how you originally conceived the book? It can be incredibly hard to cut things from something you've worked on and worked over and lived with for so long. But sometimes you're not the best person to see the wood: you know every last twig and knot of every tree... I have to say, though, that I think the pro author's notion of appropriate length is pretty narrow. I debuted at 140,000, and no one even mentioned the length. And I'm not alone.

Emma

<Added>

Gawd, did I really write 'debuted'. Shocked and blushy smiley needed. My brain's starting to rot...

Thanks for the responses.

Howabout, next time you're asked for a Full you send the original 220K word mss?

Maybe I will pick the next 6 agents on my list, tell them it's 220000 words and see what happens. On the other hand, maybe I should consign it to the bottom drawer, press on with book two and look at it again with fresh eyes somewhere down the line. Oh... decisions, decisions!

I think the real question is, if you were offered a contract for the short version, and people were waving the book and congratulating you, would you still wish it hadn't been published?

Hmm - to be absolutely honest, I think if I was happy with the idea of the short version being published I would have continued to submit it, but I haven't so I think that answers the question! Personally I was really happy with the longer version and the shorter version doesn't really feel like my book.

three fulls from six subs is an extremely encouraging hit rate.

It is, very encouraging, but the first two chapters were unaltered because I knew they were strong and the fulls were requested on the strength of these. The problem is I am very aware that the rest of the novel, shortened by 100000 words, is now weak, which is why it has been rejected. Bit of a Catch 22!

I think I need to give this a lot more thought, but I'm tempted to say "what's to lose" and start submitting the original version, at the same time trying to forget about it and press on with my next project!

Thanks again. I do appreciate you all taking the time.

Mand

Mand

I sympathise with your dilemma. My current WIP stands at 198,500 after serious editing!

There are writing tutors and writing tutors. Whether this one knew what he was talking about or not, to burst out laughing in such a situation smacks of arrogance. Explanation is helpful: derision is not. It's the sort of attitude from a mentor one can do without.

It's a good thing most of the greats of English literature didn't take his advice on wordcount. On the other hand, I'm sure it's right that it's more difficult to get something with higher production costs taken on as a first novel, but the operative word is 'difficult', not 'impossible'.

Good luck with, whichever route you choose to take. You could always alternate between the two versions each time you submit to a different agent. But keep submitting - the fact that you had requests for fulls says that it certainly isn't a waste of time and effort.

Chris

Explanation is helpful: derision is not. It's the sort of attitude from a mentor one can do without.

I second that, having once received the comment "Only a man could have written this" from a (female) writing tutor.

Alex

I second that, having once received the comment "Only a man could have written this" from a (female) writing tutor.

Alex, it shows how times have changed, that you took this as an insult. Until very recently, the highest compliment you could pay a woman writer was to say she wrote like a man...

Emma

<Added>

"Whether this one knew what he was talking about or not, to burst out laughing in such a situation smacks of arrogance. Explanation is helpful: derision is not. It's the sort of attitude from a mentor one can do without."

So true. Besides, there ARE books published which are that length, though it's more likely in some genres than others. The most a teacher can ever honestly say about this kind of question is 'It's likely to be a problem...'

Alex, it shows how times have changed, that you took this as an insult

There were other comments with it that made it clear that it was meant pejoratively. The point is, there's nothing constructive about comments of that nature.

Alex

This may be completely wrong, but it seems to me that...

1. Ok, so Mand has written a fantastic book of 220K (having read one of her shorts, I'll take that without question).

2. Writer's are often too close to their own work to see what is and is not ripe for cutting.

3. With a hit rate of 3 out of 6 looking for a full, this is a work that has some commercial potential.

4. There are some very good freelance editors out there and a very good editor would be able to show the writer things the writer cannot see.

5. Therefore...

With the success so far, and the hunch that it is the unaltered work that got the good response, it is maybe worth risking a little bit of money to pay one of the very good editors to review the 220K MSS with the specific brief of finding ways to shorten it.

Needless to say, it could be a very expensive way to end up with another unsellable manuscript, but equally, it could be an educational way to learn a lot and to turn your pride and joy into a marketable pride and joy.

Gaius

<Added>

PS: On a reverse themed thread (adding length to a short MSS) somebody suggested writing a subplot and then working it through. Similarly, is there a single subplot you can unweave from the original?

<Added>

pps:

Only a man could have written this

This one always amuses me (and I've had it said to me a few times) as it implies that where men are complex creatures with individual personalities, all women are part of a single, indivisible uber-persona and unquestioningly follow the strict rules that discipline their existence to the letter. This explains such phenomena as multi-tasking as mental processing can be farmed out across less active female minds using a sophisticated load-balancing algorithm.

I think there is nothing to lose by subbing the longer version...I certainly would. But, and it is a big but, you will have to be prepared for its length to stand against it. It's wrong, but so are chips with pizza and it don't stop kids the world over wolfing 'em down. The tutor's reaction, however blunt, will be repeated by many an agent and publisher. So long as you know.

If you think you can stomach some rejection based on, what is actually silly, prejudice, then still go for it. As I say, I would. Someone may love it enough, whatever the length.

However, if you feel that said rejection will knock you sideways, then perhaps shelve for now. Enjoy writing book two.
HB x

It's wrong, but so are chips with pizza

Next you'll try to tell me that deep-fried, battered Mars bars are wrong.

But they are not.
They are the way forward.
The deep-fried, battered Mars bar is an exemplum of culinary genius taking plain and everyday sugary foods to the height of gastronomic perfection.

Gaius

ps: Although, deep-fried, battered pizza (as reportedly sold in parts of Scotland) is an abomination.

Mand, congratulations on such a fabulous hit rate. Whatever happens, you know you write at publishable standard and are almost there. Here's what I would do (though others may disagree): since you really, really believe in the long version of your book, and since your first chapters are clearly enticing enough to hook an agent to want to read the rest, I would simply remove the word count from your query letter. That's it. When they ask for the full, you send it. If they really want to read on, they'll bear with a long ms. Perhaps a good agent can even suggest where cuts could be made without compromising the work too much. As Emma says, as the writer you can't always see the wood for the trees, particularly with a first novel. You do this with the express intention of getting feedback and of (with luck) opening some form of communication with an agent. Meanwhile, you get on with the next one, knowing you are doing all you can for the previous one.
Oh, and you didn't mention your genre. It's not a saga by any chance, is it?
Anyway, look at JB...
Best of luck with it,
Susiex

As a writer and a reader, this really lifted my spirits:

I wrote it purely for my own entertainment and with no thought that anyone else would ever read it, let alone that I might submit it for publication.

On the other hand, as we all know, publishing is a business, with schedules to meet, product to be promoted and placed, authors to be branded, etc. If you're a writer who's happy to pursue commercial requirements, the climate today probably makes more sense and is full of more opportunities than ever before. But if you're not, then there's quite a bit of struggle ahead.

I don't know if you heard Julia Donaldson on Desert Island Discs this week, but what struck me were two things: her obvious love of her art but also that from an early age she always had one eye on the audience (she mentioned, for instance, that she used to show her diaries to friends as a teenager, and wrote them with that in mind). So, while it lifts my personal spirits to see someone writing for their own entertainment, I guess I worry a little that they'll need a lot of insistence, luck and love to get it into public print.

Another example (that may or may not help!) - I attended a writing class in Oregon last year, taken by commercial writers and primarily intended to help us learn how to work towards making a living from writing. The two main tutors have published around 90 novels each and hundreds of short stories. But here's the thing: the class story that blew them both away the most was by a writer who writes in a very non-commercial way; that is, her prose is electric; she's not too bothered about classic structures, etc, but you just can't take your eyes off her words. But here's the other thing: she told me later that although her writing reads very natural, full of humour, spontaneity, etc, she's actually spent years studying great writers' techniques, practising and practising, honing and honing.

As for the creative writing tutor you mention, I'm with everyone else here. In a one-to-one situation like this, I'd suggest that coaching is probably more appropriate. And a good coach always works from what the author is trying to achieve, for themselves and their development as a writer. If at some point, the writer wants commercial advice, then the coach can offer an opinion, but always balanced against the author's intentions. Uncontrolled laughter, along with 'No chance, no way!' is not, in my view, good coaching. Or even good tutoring.

Terry