Incidentally, to add to my list from above: Ernest Hemingway : For Whom The Bell Tolls >> Literary or commercial?

Hemmingway is a cliche. Or, to put it another way, the lazy writer's literary fiction.

Terry Pratchett: Fantasy humour

JRR Tolkien: Fantasy

Susannah Clarke: Modern Fantasy (I don't think it's really Historical. It gives a rather strange version of events if it is.)

Douglas Adams: Sci-Fi humour.

In my opinion.

JB

Susannah Clarke: Modern Fantasy (I don't think it's really Historical. It gives a rather strange version of events if it is.)

No argument from me on that, but surely lit'ry modern fantasy? Or have I got this totally wrong?

As for Mr Hemingway, not sure I understand or agree with you, Naomi. When did clean, succinct writing become cliche? I'll accept it if you don't think his writing counts as literary because of his lack of extravagance, but would also argue the case that his stripped down prose can have a certain elegance nonetheless.

Gaius

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Ps As for laziness, I would argue very strongly that it takes an awful lot of work to make simple prose flow for an entire novel without getting dull and samey. A lot more work than it would take to dream up a purple metaphor or two, for example.

I'm not sure if it's literary Gaius. The style of the book is quite OTT and comedic? I'm not saying that it isn't, but it didn't strike me that way. It was a Fantasy novel, in my opinion, that transcended the bounds of the genre by becoming popular with a wider audience. There are other psuedo historical Fantasy novels, such as Temeraire (dragons in the Napoleonic wars), that aren't regarded as literary though they do more or less the same thing.

JB

OTT and comedic

In an understated and serious way, yes.

Ps As for laziness, I would argue very strongly that it takes an awful lot of work to make simple prose flow for an entire novel without getting dull and samey. A lot more work than it would take to dream up a purple metaphor or two, for example.

I totally agree with this. There is a big difference between plain simple and simple that's been worked for. For the reader, the former, prose-wise, is like walking through a maze with a hive of angry bees stuffed down one's Y-fronts. The latter is like flying without even feeling the wires. Simple prose that flows is all about choosing the minimum of exact words that transfer the meaning or image or event direct to the reader, even if it's a subtle, ambiguous meaning. Which requires a writer to have a great deal of the kind of self-knowledge (writing-wise) that only comes through years of bashing at those thick granite walls of plot, characterisation, prose and so on, only to realise there are more walls on the other side, and to just keep going anyway because of the vision.

Terry

but would also argue the case that his stripped down prose can have a certain elegance nonetheless.

It depends. If you are a natural at writing purple prose, then yes, I'd agre with you. But a proportion of beginners are the opposite and take the cowards way out by writing simple prose and pointing to Hemingway and saying 'but he did it like that'.
It's like Modern Art artists not bothering to learn how to paint & draft properly, and thinking they can get away with a few daubs on a canvas.

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And an author becomes a cliche when there are so many writers copying his style.

Hemingway is anything but a cliche - I honestly don't know how you can say that, Naomi...

'Write the truest sentence that you know' is a pretty good starting block for any writer?

I think that's the point with fiction - apart from labels which may or may not fit - is it true? Not in the literal sense - great writing is writing that touches the heart and the soul and makes you feel - yes - that is how it is - or how it might have been or - this is how is should be?

Have you read 'For whom the bell tolls'?

Let alone - 'The sun also rises' , 'A farewell to arms' and 'The old man and the sea'...

Sarah



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Pratchett when he hits the top of his form is a great writer IMO - and he makes the world a better place to live in

I guess it depends on one's definition of cliche, sarah.

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Yes, Pratchett at his best is a genius.

Ok so I like Hemingway

Glad we can agree on Pratchett - have you read Unseen Academicals? Recommended

Sarah