Thanks, Flora - there's some encouragement in that!!

Cheers

john

Naomi

Thanks, once again, for your thoughts on this.

Not sure about the 'overpriced' comments for Pods. I did PoD with my first novel (The Outcrop) through the YouWriteOn website and it's now on Amazon selling for £7.99.

When I took it into a local bookshop and asked them to take some copies (which they did) they told me that because of the number of pages, 336, and the size of the book, 15cm x 22.8cm, it would have been priced higher than that (over £10)if it had been published through an established publisher.

Anyway, thanks again. I've now started subbing the new MS to agents, so I'll see what happens.

Regards

John

Colin

Yes, I'm with you all the way there - and maybe I gave up too easily. I just wanted to see a copy of my book on a shelf in Waterstones, which I did actually achieve. (And no, I didn't sneak in and put it there myself!!)

Not that they've sold (m)any copies, but then, my experience was that I wasn't going to sell any copies through the normal publishing route either!

So who knows?

Thanks again for you time,

Regards

John

Not sure about the 'overpriced' comments for Pods. I did PoD with my first novel (The Outcrop) through the YouWriteOn website and it's now on Amazon selling for £7.99.

Prices have come down over recent years as PoD publishers have been set up in the UK. But bookshops and wholesalers expect a 40% discount on list price, so that needs to be factored in, along with postage costs if buying via Amazon Marketplace or direct from the PoD publisher.
Often Amazon will order two copies and then charge buyers a £1.99 'finders fee'. Even with their free postage, it still pushes the price towards £10 a copy, which is steep for paperbacks.

<Added>

...then charge buyers a £1.99 'finders fee' once those have been sold.

Just another note on this, because when I mentioned self publishing, I personally wouldn't go for digital POD because the unit cost is too high to make it worthwhile.

If you are serious about self publishing and think you can shift enough copies then go for lithographic print. That way your unit cost will come down dramatically, allowing you to sell to local bookshops at a big enough discount to let them sell at a competitive (or just reasonable) price and still make a profit - while you make a profit too. The difference is that you will probably be asked for a minimum print run of 1000 units to bring the price down. 2000 units will bring it down further. But even 1000 books requires a fair deal of space to store, so again, it's something that needs thinking about.

It all comes down to whether you are vanity publishing or publishing as a small business. Nothing wrong with vanity publishing - it just isn't a business. That's the main difference between the two.

So ask yourself this: Do you want to have a book that you can sell at a high price to family and friends, or do you want to produce a competitive product that the public will buy?

Coming back to the original question, if you go for option 2, and sell over 2000 copies, then yes, an agent may well sit up and take interest. You also have the added benefit, being the original publisher, of being able to sell the subsidiary rights. So when your book is published by Mainstream Publisher Ltd, you get a royalty of 8% (minus 10% of that 8 to your agent) plus, another 10% (or therabouts) as the original publisher.

cha-ching!!!!

Mind you, if it was that easy, I'd have already given it a go.

Colin M

If you are serious about self publishing and think you can shift enough copies then go for lithographic print.

Agreed. But it is a big outlay. One copy will cost in the region of £500 because that's the cost of making the lithographic print for the front cover. The rest of the cost is mostly the number of pages, so the unit (book) price will drop depending on the number of copies you order.

allowing you to sell to local bookshops at a big enough discount to let them sell at a competitive (or just reasonable) price and still make a profit - while you make a profit too.

The problem is you need to visit the bookshop and talk them into stocking copies - and you can't just turn up with a dozen copies and expect them to stock them, they don't have the space. They'll take a couple of copies on a sale or return basis - ie, they won't pay you up front, but will keep 40% of the book price and give you the other 60% if and when the copies are sold. You need to repeat that at every bookshop in your area. At some point you'll find the petrol costs will have weighed any profit you might have seen on the books - and you'll need to repeat the visits to collect the cash.
If they order extra copies you'll have to pay postage costs....
If you post the bookshops copies on spec, oyu're liable to get them back with 'return to sender' scrawled on the unopened package.
I could go on, but I think you get the gist.

<Added>

...out[/'] weighed any profit...

<Added>

The best place to sell copies are via:
the local schools - if it's childrens fiction;
at your local art and craft fairs;
author's talks at local libraries;
books signings at your local bookshops;

One of the worst places is via the internet.

<Added>

oops it's all in italics

The problem is you need to visit the bookshop and talk them into stocking copies

I'm just assuming that this is a hurdle already considered, in which case, a unit cost of £3 is more reasonable than £8.

One copy will cost in the region of £500 because that's the cost of making the lithographic print for the front cover.

That's just silly, because no one would consider that an option. Read the post - "The difference is that you will probably be asked for a minimum print run of 1000 units".

This is why mass printing is a business investment, not an outlay, because the point is to make a return, not split even with a small audience.

Ultimately, with self publishing, your aim is to produce a book that does not appear to be self published - and that includes the price to Joe Public.

Hi

As with all these things, different people have different takes on this - and now the arguments don't seem quite as clear cut as they were earlier in the thread - we seem to have moved from 'don't' to 'don't, but if you do...'.

All my decisions are on hold - and as I think I have already said, I've started sending out the MS to agents, but I don't know if I'll get to fifty (submissions) - I may not have the strength to keep going that long!

But thanks for all the advice, it really is much appreciated.

Cheers

John

One problem I've noticed with some of the advice people give here is that, while they present it as hard fact, it actually mostly conceals their own inability to tackle the subject to hand with the super-efforts often required. So - there is a lot of emphatic statement about what you can and can't do; what agents will or won't accept; backed up with sort-of statistics that may or may not be correct in one sense at one time, but which mean little anyway to someone who's prepared to do all that it takes.

I don't have a firm grasp at all on which way the publishing wind is blowing. And, to put my cards on the table, I still favour, overall, trying to succeed in the mainstream route. However, things are changing: publishers are becoming more and more aware that the current model of vast paper (and human resource) wastage is not sustainable. They also watch closely, even if they don't admit it, the increasing success of authors who use self-publishing/podcasting models to build readerships totally independent of a publisher's contract. So that publishers then end up going cap in hand to such writers, urging them to take a mainstream contract: which is not cricket at all.

There are recent interviews with J C Hutchins worth checking at: http://isbw.murlafferty.com/category/podcast/ and http://www.adventuresinscifipublishing.com/ Like others that have succeeded with the self-publishing/podcasting route, he comes across as someone who's basically happy to have to work hard. One example: he talks about how he made a deal with his local bookstore - that if anyone wanted to buy his book, the store would phone him up and he'd drive in to sign the book personally and have a chat with the buyer. Sounds nuts at one level, but think about the good will that generates.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we writers need to balance knowledge of how things are with awareness of how things may be changing, all the while keeping up our optimism and hard work levels. Which to be blunt, could well mean spending less time posting jaded advice on WW and more spent generating creative can-do both in our writing and how we get it out there.

Terry

My husband Steve and I completed a science-fiction novel, "Einstein's Question" in the early Spring of 2008. We did our research and drew up a list of agents who specialised in Science-Fiction. There were various factors that meant we weren't an immediate choice - we were first-time novelists, we didn't have the next book in the pipeline, we were joint authors - which can apparently put people off - and there was some heavy scientific content including equations.

Submission guidelines ranged from first 3 - 6 chapters. Only one agent requested the full manuscript and in the event, he offered to represent us. Unfortunately after 3 rounds of submissions to science-fiction friendly publishers, we were still without a publisher and rather than wait, we discussed it with our agent and decided that we would self-publish with AuthorHouse. Of course, having taken this action, I'll never know whether we'd have found a publisher eventually and I take on board everything people have said about going for vanity publishing rather than revising the book in line with good critical feedback. In fact, apart from one comment that maybe we'd written two books in one - which would have meant a serious rewrite, we didn't really get that sort of feedback.

The upside of using someone like AuthorHouse is that they handle the book distribution for you, send details to Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Waterstone's etc. for their online services and ship via the distributors to the retail outlets. The downside is that all of that has an impact on cost so an AuthorHouse paperback retails at a considerably higher price than a mainstream publisher. We never considered just getting it printed and handling storage and distribution ourselves - that would have been far too much hassle. You also have to take total responsibility for marketing the book - we commissioned a website, tapped into our personal, commercial and online networks, placed ads on the Physics World website and announced the release on the BSFA (British Science Fiction Association) website. Since May of this year, combined sales (direct and retail)is close on the 100 mark (the latest royalty statement only goes up to June)so I don't think we've done too badly.

It has been a terrific learning experience. I'm working on my new novel at the moment and there is so much I will do differently - for example, you really need a killer first chapter. If it takes over a 100 pages before the story develops, it will be more difficult to attract an agent or publisher who only wants the first 50-60 pages. It seems a shame to have to structure your book from a sales perspective rather than writing the story as you feel it develops naturally. I now understand why so many contemporary novels begin with a punchy prologue before getting on with the serious business of character introduction and plot development!

Realise I'm rambling - but in the end, I'm glad we went ahead with the PoD approach - I think with the subject matter, we would have had a problem finding a mainstream publisher and we were lucky enough to be able to take that route. But my advice to other fiction writers at least, no matter how obscure their subject matter, is definitely try for the traditional route first - and only go for self-publishing if (a) you can afford the outlay (and as discussed already there are lots of options and corresponding costs) and (b)if you're prepared to do the legwork and cope with the possible disappointments.

I've described the whole experiencein more detail on my blog:
http://www.redroom.com/blog/deja1920/self-publish-and-be-damned

Regards,
Deja

Terry

You're right - the publishing industry is changing, and like the music industry it has to change, otherwise it will loose out.

It's probable that he more they dig in, the more self-inflicted damage they are likely to incur. They may see themselves as immune from, or indeed separate from, the advances in digital technology, but I think that in the end they will be overtaken. The way that books are produced, published and distributed will change.

Only my opinion, of course, but watch this space.

Cheers

John

Deja

That's an interesting take on the changes. And some v useful info on AuthorHouse. So thanks for that.

And good luck with the new novel.

As you may have read, I'm on the traditional route at the moment. How long I'll stay there, I don't know.

Regards.

John

Just another couple of thoughts to add to this.

I was sent details last night of a publisher I might want to consider for my YA novel. Having looked at their site and the books, and the prices of those books, I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. The site has errors, the books are very poorly designed (look like standard gradient fills in Word) and the prices yell out "SELF PUBLISHED" - but, they are operating as a standard publisher and making money. I can't shake the feeling that the editors and authors may well be the same, but so what. What this tells me is that is that self publishing can lead to a small business.

The second thought is that the Sony Reader has dropped in price. It used to sell at £199, then shot up to £229, but has come back down - but in Currys, they are on offer at £149. New readers are in development, with wifi so you can buy books on the go (???) but with all developments, once the ball starts rolling, the prices come down. When readers are selling at £20 pound a pop (like DVD players, CD Walkmans, MP3 Players - all of which started out at the £100 mark) then ebooks will explode and publishers will be dragged down to level pegging with indies.

That's wot I reckon.

Colin M

My first book, Stage Struck, was published by a 'real publisher' - a small independent here in Spain. Big mistake! It was started by people who had no publishing experience, but had self-published a couple of fiction books and thought they knew what they were doing. I admit they worked hard for no money for three years, but their biggest mistake was to take on too many authors, most of whom should never have been published or needed excellent editing. They took on over 40 authors in 3 years, which of course gave no-one a chance. Their editors were people who had no experience and the printers were POD. Yes, they got us listed in Amazon, Gardners etc, but apart from the books most of us sold to friends and family, they all sank without trace. I would rather never have been published than suffer the frustrations and disappointments of the past 18 months. If I had self published, I would probably have sold the same number of books, and had to pay the costs, so would possibly have broken even. But at least I would have had control. Now I don't have the rights to my book - though I am sure they would sell them back to me at a price. I bought books by several other authors and have failed to finish any of them. This makes me wonder whether my own book had any value - in spite of lots of good reviews in the local press and enthusiasm from friends and family.
I have now decided that if I can't find an agent for subsequent books, they will stay on the shelf, even if they never get published.
Suzanne
www.sue-stokes.co.uk

Colin

I'm with you. There will always be a place for books - and the scaremongering that is saying that the digital age will kill the book as we know it, is pure piffle! (Why does the word luddite spring to mind?)

But I think that we should have the choice - a paper-book - or its e-tech equivalent!

Thanks for your thoughts.

john