I have just completed a crime novel, and, in the process, I have had it critiqued by a 'professional literary' person who gave me lots of good advice which I have incorporated - and some which I have ignored. This same person has offered to re-read the MS and give me further feedback - all, of course, for another, not insubstantial lump of cash.

However, I feel the book is written (yes, I know, that sounds pretty arrogant, but you can only go around the edit - critique - re-edit loop so many times, especially if there is a substantial cost to each iteration) and this coupled with the reality of finding an agent and publisher (99.99% of all submitted MS's never go anywhere) I am considering having the book published as Print on Demand (PoD) through Lulu or the YouWriteOn website (who offer a similar service.)

By that means I have real book, with an ISBN, number that is available on Amazon and Waterstones (online) and which I can sell to my family and friends - if I twist their arms enough. (My first novel, The Outcrop, is available through this route.)

But here is the question: what would be the reaction of agents (and publishers) if I sent them a copy of my crime novel and told them I was looking for formal representation? Would they reject me out of hand because I had gone down the PoD route or would they read the book as they would any other submitted manuscript?

Any thoughts,

jumbo (John Allen)

what would be the reaction of agents (and publishers) if I sent them a copy of my crime novel and told them I was looking for formal representation? Would they reject me out of hand because I had gone down the PoD route

99.9% of the time, probably yes.

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If you haven't already done so submit it to at least 50 agents first, before deciding whether or not to PoD publish. If you PoD publish DON'T give it an ISBN number if you have any intention of submitting it to agents and publishers in the future. That way yo can always claim the self-published copies were just proof copies, not proper self-publishing.

Even if it was not your intention at the time, self-publishing says to an Agent or publisher one of two things:
'I've submitted to everyone I can think of in the WAAYB and they've all rejected it, so I've gone ahead and self-published'.
Or,
'I've ignored all the advice I've been given on how to make this a commercial proposition, and to keep my artistic integrity I've gone ahead and self-published'.

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Self-publishing is a legitimate, albeit risky, route to take if you have a novel that sits outside the normal conventions of the genre and has had a lot of positive feedbck from agents but that has ended with the words 'but we don't know how to market it', ad so are unwilling to risk taking it on.
However, in such cases it is best to go with a limited imprint rather than PoD publishing, and hope it will sell by word of mouth.

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The reality of self-publishing (as with any commecial venture) is it should only be used if you have a ready market for the product (books) - and that is rarely the case for Adult fiction novels

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...the exception being out of print novels by established authors.

Naomi

Hi

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

A lot to think about - it's much appreciated.

Regards

john

Sorry if this comes across as a bit of tub-thumping, but one more thing to think about: Although 99.99% of mss are rejected by agents, that is a better hit rate than the between one to two million self published novels sitting on Amazon's and Lulu's websites which have only sold one copy.

This has always been a bone of contention. Does self-publishing damage your chances long term?

If your work is good enough, at worst, agents and publishers interested will inquire about your 'success' and the interest you have drummed up. If they feel there is a bite, they will take it.

Thanks, Naomi.

Have you managed to attract an agent/publisher with your writing?

Cheers

john

Thanks POD,

So you think that an agent would at least read part of a submitted PoD novel?

john

Does self-publishing damage your chances long term?

It does damage - ruin, probably - the chances of the book you self-published getting a commercial publishing deal:

a) Naomi's right that, rightly or wrongly, agents and publishers will assume that you self-published because you couldn't persuade a publisher to take it on, for a variety of reasons (it's truly terrible; it's not good enough; it might be made good enough but in talking to agents and publishers you refused to change so much as a comma; you know so little about the book trade that you don't know the difference between a publisher and a self-publisher)

b) if you have managed to sell some self-published copies, those will be to the people who ought to form the core of the market for your work - they're not going to buy another copy. So in essence, you've shot yourself in the foot. In a publisher's terms, the fact that ten (most likely), or fifty (I'm impressed) or a hundred (I'm very impressed) people were persuaded by you to buy (not necessarily read) your book means virtually nothing.

That's why I would argue that it's a mistake to submit a novel in a self-pubbed format, however handy it's been for you to have one to read: perhaps unfairly, as Naomi says, it just screams those two reasons for not taking you on, even before they've read a word, and they'll read the first page assuming it's not good enough.

If you're talking about long-term chances of getting other deals for other books, it would need sales of several thousands, to people who would be likely then to buy your next book, to prove to a publisher that you've established a market for your work. In that case, as backup to a cracking new manuscript, it might help to get an agent to take you on (subject to the possible bad vibe of 2) above, so I'd say, just mention it in your submission, don't send in the book). But I can't tell you how unlikely it is that you would sell those thousands. If you do - fantastic!

If we're talking about non-fiction, it's different. If your seminal work on clipping Guinea Pigs' toenails has been sold to every guinea pig fancier in the country, and you still have all the routes by which you did that, then your chances of getting your next book, on feeding Guinea Pigs, published by someone are really pretty good, assuming it's well written, properly structured, and does what it says on the tin.

Jane Smith at How Publishing Really Works is very good on self-publishing:

http://www.howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/

and at its sister blog, she reviews self-published books, to a strict system which takes account of the quality of editing and production (which is where self-publishing often falls down), as well as the writing:

http://theselfpublishingreview.blogspot.com/

Emma

I agree with what Naomi and Emma are saying here. It is possible to make self-publishing work but only if you use it as part of a concerted and effective self-promotion campaign. I've mentioned them here before, but check out the approaches taken by Scott Sigler, J C Hutchins and Mur Lafferty. Sigler in particular has turned himself into a best-seller through self-publishing/podcasting his novels and initially giving them away free. However, if you listen to him talk (and there are loads of interviews with him on the internet), he's clearly very out-going, very articulate and has a clear vision of his target audience. Oh, and he works incredibly hard at promoting his books. So, if you're not able to do something similar, self-publishing is really you saying that your book is good enough to succeed purely on merit. But then you're automatically in a kind of Catch-22; because if it's good enough on merit, a proper publisher (i.e. one who's prepared to invest time and money in your book) will take it on.

This may or may not be a cautionary tale, but I once nearly put one of my books through a POD company. They do something in-between traditional publishing and self-publishing, i.e. they edit your book, advertise it on their website, etc, and there's no cost to you; on the other hand, they don't do much promotion and their books don't get reviewed, etc. This particular book had been submitted by my agent to a few top fantasy publishers. With one, it had got through to the editorial board stage, with the senior editor wanting to do it. But the committee overall didn't vote for it. Which led me to this POD company. But at the last minute, I pulled the book back. It was a bit of a Groucho Marx thing: the POD publisher had said Yes just a bit too easily; and my conscience was thinking, I don't want any book of mine published by anyone who'd want to publish it, if that makes sense. What I now plan to do - eventually - is re-draft the book and work hard on the submission package (something I've spent a lot of time and effort learning about over the past year) and re-submit it to traditional publishers.

Terry

Have you managed to attract an agent/publisher with your writing?

The fastest rejections I got for work written subsequent to my foray into self publishing occurred where I mentioned self publishing in the covering letter. Which pretty much sums up Agents' attitudes to it.



- NaomiM

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The self publishing was a lot of fun, but I didn't do it specifically in the hope of attracting an agent - although, like you, I thought it could be a backdoor into the industy. Rather, I did it as an excuse to commission a series of illustations from my favorite local artist.

Self-pub is best treated as a hobby, albeit an expensive one.





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One thing i've learnt in recent years, is how muchwork goes into the raw mss by agents and editors ad the writer to turn it into a publishable novel. Self published novels can never hope to come up to that level.

Thanks, Emma, Terry and Naomi.

And 'hello' again to Emma and Terry - it's been a while sine we spoke!

But I'm getting this message loud and strong! So thanks very much for that.

I shall be out in the morning to purchase stamps and envelopes and update my copy of the Writers' and Artists' Handbook.

Thanks again for your help with this,

Regards

john

It does damage - ruin, probably - the chances of the book you self-published getting a commercial publishing deal:

I'm not sure it's as drastic as that - some publishers actively scout for successful self-published novels (Christopher Paolini is a notable example in the US but there have been UK examples too, albeit less high profile).

If a publisher truly loves a work and thinks it's saleable they will probably want to publish it regardless of it's prior POD/self-published status, rather like publishers turning highly successful blogs into books. If the blog is popular enough it won't matter to them whether it's been on the web for years or not. But I agree it's far better to exhaust conventional routes before turning to POD. If nothing else, in POD you are spending time and money doing work that a publisher/agent might do for you if your work is good enough.

For reasons I don't have time to go into here, Christopher Paolini is not a good example of a self-published writer, nor is GP Taylor. They certainly did not go down the PoD route, but went for limited imprints. They would not have had the success they did if they had PoD published, because PoD limits access to copies, and copies are overpriced - often double the price of mainstream paperbacks.

Yes, some publishers have actively sought out popular blogs, most notably The Friday Project which promptly went into recievership.

Some internet-savvy Agents are trawling sites like Authonomy for good mss, and that would be a far better route for writers to get their work noticed than to PoD publish and have their work swamped by the millions of other PoD published novels.

The chances of an unsolicited mss being signed up off agents' slush piles is far far higher than having it spotted via the PoD route.
If the mss has been sent to several dozen agents and recieved standard rejections from all of them, then put it away, don't bother PoD publishing. There is not conspiracy against new writers, it's simply not publishable.



- NaomiM

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There is a awful lot of sales hype out there generated by PoD publishers looking for new customers, because PoD has a limited niche market which is saturated. This hype is compounded by PoD published writers looking to publicize themselves and their books and talking up the new technology, and claiming the internet is a great marketing tool.
So one has to ask oneself, if it's so great, when's the last time I and my family and friends bought a PoD published novel?

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I would love to believe that PoD was a good method of self publishing - assuming, one was going to take one's chances and self publish - but the business models simply don't support it. There is a big difference between going the limited imprint route or the PoD publishing route, and PoD loses out every time.

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If you want to self-publish then go the GP Taylor and Paolini route with a limited imprint, tout the books round everywhere and anywhere you can think of, and rely on word of mouth to get you noticed. It also helps if you're an ex-vicar writing about daemons who's sold their motorbike to fund the reprint - marketing departments love that sort of thing.

I've put together a lot of books for a local publisher - typesetting, cover design etc, so self publishing for me would be cheap and very, very easy, which makes the decision not to go self publishing all the more difficult. Terry hit the nail on the head, that some companies accept a little too easily, which would make me suspicious also.

Being published by the standard route isn't just about advances and sales; it's about someone having the opinion that your book is good enough to invest their money in. That's why I've held back for so long over the easy option of self publishing.

Hasn't got me anywhere though

Colin M