Rosy,

I wasn't implying that editorial agencies or freelance editors are a better route to getting published than having an agent. As I've said in the past, I think it's misleading for editorial agencies to imply (or openly state in one or two cases) that they are the way in. A good freelance editor/agency can help with a writer's specific needs and/or help them pinpoint what those needs are in the first place; but they're not gatekeepers to the publishing industry, or even to agents. So you've no need to 'expose' me as seeking clients: if I want to do that I'll openly state so. Which means your argument for agents vs editorial agencies is a little redundant: I wasn't making it. In fact, I agree - where selling one's books is concerned, an agent is a much better deal than an editorial agency.

In this instance, I was talking about an attitude as much as anything else - of getting out there and finding the workshops, courses and individuals who can really help; who've been up the kind of path you want to go up yourself. And, no, that probably doesn't mean those nice, cosy weeks in the country with a couple of writers following a course formula that hasn't changed in nearly 40 years. It probably means digging deeper to find what you need, and almost certainly making more sacrifices than you might have expected.

As I keep saying, I'm not against agents - I expect to be looking for one myself in the not too distant future - but what I find a little depressing is the passivity with which so many new writers approach their careers. A passivity which suits many agents only too well. And I'm not saying don't try the agent route: try any route that might help. However, I've also been trying to tip the balance a little, away from what seems to be a firmly entrenched belief in many WW writers, that there's no point in even trying to find a publisher before getting an agent.

Terry

Yeah, i can vouch for Terry's motives. He initially looked at some of my work as a favour - a favour indeed as most of us know on here that Terry isn't what you'd call a fan of chick lit.

Yet, his comments were absolutely spot on and as a result i asked him formally to look at my sub package. Terry's rates are also very competitive and his service generous and speedy.

Going back to the question of the thread, well, i guess people are all going to suggest what worked for them and - as we know - there are many paths to getting published. Being prepared to tread along several of them in the hope of success is probably the answer.

Oh dear, I’m very sorry (sorry sorry sorry) if my post came over as in any way attempting to impugn Terry’s motives. That absolutely wasn’t my intention. It was merely that I was trying to divine what he meant by the part of his post which I quoted:

Best advice I can give at this stage is to find people who've done that and are willing to tell you how; but you'll have to search hard and be willing to pay, both in time and money.

I see now, Terry that you didn’t necessarily mean only editorial agencies, but

the workshops, courses and individuals who can really help

i.e. (presumably?) CW courses and tutors as well as editorial agencies and other paid-for help.

I think my point still stands, however. I would always still (just speaking personally) advocate trying the agent route as the first and best route both to help and advice on a ms (for free) as well as to placement for publication. My own personal view is that I would only advocate seeking expensive help of the kind you mention if trying for an agent had ended in blanket rejection. There are, after all, many ways in which one can hone one’s writing skills for free in the pre-submission stages - such as posting on WW- ! - or joining real life mutual critiquing groups. And indeed one of the joys of WW (and other sites like it) is the access it also gives to advice from experienced writers and those with knowledge of the industry (Terry very much among them), in one’s own sitting-room for nothing - or for forty quid a year’s membership or whatever it is.

I shouldn’t want to appear to be denigrating the great work that editorial agencies do – or places like Arvon, etc. If people choose those routes, either for personal pleasure and the development of their writing, or as a route to possible publication, that’s great. What I can’t personally agree with is the view that paid-for editorial assistance and paid-for courses are in any way the normal or routine or best route for an aspiring writer. The idea that anyone who wants to get published ha to be prepared to – should expect to - commit money is one I would refute most strongly.

That’s all. It’s just a personal opinion, and I fully appreciate that others would take a different view.

Rosy



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In other words, I'm with you completely, Terry, on the time-commitment, and effort-commitment part. It's the money-commitment part with which I would take issue. Possibly just the deluded democrat and idealist in me!

My imagination doesn't like to rule anything out. I actually got an idea for a chick lit novel the other day but am now trying to compress it into a potential short story.

JB

Just to throw in my penneth's worth...

I think it depends who you're aiming your stuff at (apologies if you've gone over this, have scanned these messages pre-caffeine so may miss something). The Big Boys (eg. Penguin, Random House etc) won't take unsolicited m/s and only accept stuff from reputable agents and friends / friends of friends. Sure, you can be uber clever / aggressive and get in there but it's close to impossible. However, smaller presses do take unsolicited m/s.

My personal experience? My agent has been a Godsend. The majority of editorial improvements she's suggested have been spot on. Some haven't been - but I just ignored those and she was cool with that. The fact she's steered some of the top YA writers to publication and six-figure deals kinda makes me think she knows what she's talking about - but equally, I know my book and my market so keep a level head about it all and don't do all her changes. I would always recommend trying to find a GOOD agent - but that's because I accept I'm still learning and am thrilled to get advice. I'm not one of those people who thinks 'my book is perfect' until I see it on the book shelves.

Anyway, we'll see how I get on, soon to sub to publishers. Good luck, whichever road you choose. :-)

The fact she's steered some of the top YA writers to publication and six-figure deals kinda makes me think she knows what she's talking about

Yes, I do think it depends on the agent but also very much so on their track record. Their successes should speak for themselves?

JB

Another point to make for future readers of this thread is that much of the above only really applies to novels. The big houses do accept unsolocited non-fiction subs, and although if you're writing trade non-fiction I'd still think that you'd probably get a better deal and be safer with an agent, it does seem to be more straightforward to do without one. And there's always the Society of Authors for contract-checking, if you don't have an agent to do it for you (and, indeed, for the agency agreement if you do).

A propos track-record, agents who are ex-editors also have a record of who they edited, which can make it easier to tell what makes them tick than other ex-publishing types. Obviously selling books to editors isn't the same skill as being one (though editing agency clients' books is), but it is related, just as one of the chief skills of a gamekeeper is knowing how poachers think...

Emma

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"The big houses do accept unsolocited non-fiction subs"

or even unsolicited ones...

To answer the original question: yes, it is harder to be published by a reputable house (one that will market your book and develop all of those juicy subsidiary right sales) without the help of an agent. Agents have relationships with editors. They can call them on the phone and ask to buy them a beer. Can you do that? If so, go ahead.

I've worked for a small house and, while a group of interns did fight to keep the unsolicted submission pile at bay, even the rejection letter said something to the extent of, "It'd do you best to go through an agent." I worked at a medium house and we wouldn't even look at the unsolicted.

Note: not all agents were created equal. Go with someone who has been in the business, who is making steady sales, who, in short, knows what they're talking about.

Sorry if this is redundant.

Jordan