Well I was restraining myself from asking you the same, Terry.

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...we all know your adversion to advice from Agents, and it doesn't seem to have helped your writing career any.

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Don't worry, Janstar, Terry and I do this every month or so.

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It is worth submitting to Snowbooks. They are a small but successful publisher, they like SF and their submission process is very easy - just email the mss. No synopsis necessary.

http://www.snowbooks.com/submissions.html

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Just to reassure you, Janstar, that WWers have had success by submitting directly to publishers such as Snowbooks, Macmillan New Writing and Usborne Childrens books.

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This is purely my personal opinion, but one advantage to having an agent is to prevent your ideas being ripped off by a publisher. Is is extremely rare, but there is nothing - except maybe an agent - to stop a publisher who likes a premiss for a story picked out of the slush pile from commissioning another writer to write it.

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I'll leave you with a final thought: With the inherent difficulty all writers face in getting published, why make it even more difficult for yourself by limiting your submissions to just publishers?
Anecdotal evidence suggests that only 10% of agented first novels manage to get published, and those have the advantage of a bit of spit and polish and accompanied by a professional pitch from the agent.
Personally I would submit to both agents and publishers in an attempt to get published.

Naomi, do you have an agent, and has that agent helped to edit your work before it was/is sent out? And if so, does that make you feel better about your script, or that you would never have attracted an editor's eye without that input? I ask because it's clear you are very much in favour of agents, and of agents helping an author get their books oven-ready.

Colin M

I'm not sure what it is we're supposed to do every month or so, Naomi. You criticised Heinlein's advice as being very simplistic, so I asked you what alternative procedures you follow and what success they've brought you. You haven't answered the question. The wider point here is that if someone is going to give prescriptive advice, it's reasonable that they be questioned on what basis they're giving it; what is their personal success with it. Otherwise, what is the good in giving it?

I talked about my recent switch to SF/Fantasy earlier in this post. Most of the first stage of this is, as I said, starting fresh. Which for me means writing short fiction for the most part. So far this year, I've sold 9 stories which in a highly competitive market is a very good success (that's what editors and other writers tell me). I've another five through to second stage consideration at the moment as well. And yes, I've been following Heinlein's rules. Just two days ago, an editor wrote to say she loved my story but wanted re-writes to fit the criteria of the magazine. I'm re-writing it, i.e. as in rule 3.

Before all this, I had several children's novels, picture books and non-fiction books published with Random House, Scholastic, Corgi, Hutchinson, and others. I'm just about to send off my first SF novel to a top New York editor. She had asked me to write this based around a short story of mine she read and loved, i.e. no agent involved yet. Of course, this isn't a guarantee she'll take it - there are always lost of speed bumps in this world - but it's great to be asked, and I'm pleased to have written it anyway. I wouldn't normally have mentioned it at this stage but since you've challenged me, I'll risk the jinx. How about you responding in like manner? (Ditto Colin's question, too.)

Terry

It's been a very interesting debate,

I'll keep an open mind about agents for the time being. I have had some really good feedback so far from friends and friends of friends etc. I wanted the opinion of the people that would actually read or buy the book first. The general public tend to know what they like and for me that's more important.

Other writers, editors, agents etc would probably be more critical than the average joe, so to speak. For that reason, I'm not quite ready to post it on here, far too scared. I want to get a bit more of it done first but I will post it eventually.

I'm only just starting out and I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. I'll do a bit more research on agents later on in the year.

For now I just need to wait until my membership to WW becomes full, then I'll be off to the beginners forum.

Good luck Terry, that does sound promising.

An agent is there to help you find a publisher. In today's competitive market, if you want your book published, you want all the help you can get. Are they essential? No. Are they desirable? You bet your bottom dollar they are.

JB

Sending work out to agents is a fairly good yardstick for measuring your own abilities as a writer. Mind you, this only works if you send work to lots of agents, because three or four rejections could mean anything from the agency not taking new writers on to them not wanting your type of fiction. But thirty rejections without any positive comments is a sure sign you need to do more work, likewise three requests for the full script and a few positive rejections tells you you're doing something right.

I will never forget the elation I felt when I opened a self-addressed envelope to find a letter requesting the full script. I was jumping about the room and singing and all kinds.

The full script was rejected, but just getting over that first hurdle was a sign that I was improving and enough to keep me working.

Keep at it!

Colin M

Just a word of warning, Janstar, if you see agents as some kind of last resort you can fall back on - if you've already submitted to publishers on your own and been rejected, an agent won't be able to submit that exact piece of work to them again and probably won't be interested in taking you on.

(An agent i subbed to recently finds this frustrating and one of the first questions she asked me was have you subbed to any publishers on your own?)

Thanks for that advice Casey, if that's the case then I'll probably start with an agent.

Hmmmmm. Editorial advice from an agent is a tricky business.
I too know someone who was advised to turm her very literary book into a romance. She spent six months doing so only for the agent to say it was now worse. My friend felt severely pissed around.
However, another mate wrote an interesting tale about a hostess in Hong Kong and an agent suggested she turn it into a thriller. She's written three in the series so far, all hitting the best sellers list, and secured an advance of 120k for her next two. Job done.
The moral of the story, is that edotorial advice will come from every corner - a writing group, a tutor, a trusted reader, an agent, an editor, a copy editor, the guy in marketing ...the list is endless...it is for you to decide which advice to take and which to ignore. Some will jump out at you as exactly the right thing. They will nail something that has been bugging you about the story all along. Others you will reject. As long as you approach each suggestion with an open mind, this should not be a problem. An agent's editorial advice should be treated in exactly the smae way.
HB x

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And Casey's right - the very first question an agent asks is who else has already seen it.

Good advice, Helen. As you say, it's for the writer to decide which advice to take and which to ignore. Contrary to what some seem to think, I'm not against taking an agent's advice. What I sometimes feel compelled to respond to are recommendations on this site which amount to making oneself too passive and deferential towards agents. There is a growing view that agents are the master gatekeepers to one's writing future, therefore one must do exactly what they say but that can and does lead to a lot of writers compromising their creative instincts.

With my last agent, we once worked together on a non-fiction series. It was supposed to be a collaboration but in the event I did all the research, writing and editing. My agent wasn't happy with one of the books and wanted a massive re-write. I refused and sent the book to the publisher as was. He was delighted with it. The agent and I parted company (over that and other things; but to be fair, she was on a whole mass of medication at the time). Last time I saw the publisher, he asked me if I'd do a follow-up for three times the royalties! The lesson, in this case at least, being that my agent was brilliant at getting deals and improving contracts but she wasn't a writer or editor. That was my job.

Terry

I think that's fair enough Terry and I can certainly see how that could happen. My agent made it very clear that he doesn't do line edits and the actual quality of the writing was down to me, along with the ideas. The only thing he pointed out was that there was potentially an interesting commercial novel hiding inside my somewhat scattershot controversial one, and if I wanted to achieve what I'd set out to achieve, perhaps it migth be better to focus on that. There was no pressure. There was empathy over it being a 'Big Ask'. As you say, the writer retains the right to choose throughout the process, and most circumstances will depend very much on the particular agent and writer.

Was it good advice? Well, I'm a lot happier with the finished product. It feels like the book it was meant to be, but as for the rest, time will tell.

JB

Janstar, it's also worth remembering that no agent worth her salt will 6orce you to make channges you don't agree with. Before you shake hands, he or she will likely suggest areas for improvement; it's then up to you to decide if you're going to be on the same wavelength. I turned down an offer of representation partly because the agent concerned - though excellent - didn't seem to think my book needed any additional work at all, and I knew, deep down, that it did.

I rate my agent very highly indeed - not just because, with a First in English from Oxford and some very successful client, she clearly knows what she' talking about, but because I really feel she 'gets' my book. We spent four months on revisions, and I know that it's much stronger for it.

(FWIW, I think points 3 and 5 ARE rather simplistic.)

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Argh - please excuse typos! Doing this via Blackberry...

Haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, so I may be repeating something - I think most of the issues have been touched on.

I wanted the opinion of the people that would actually read or buy the book first. The general public tend to know what they like and for me that's more important.

It's so worth getting feedback on what you're writing, but when it later comes to trying to get the book published, what you have to remember is that, it's editors who are buying your book. They're your customer, if you see what I mean. An agent's job - for better or worse - is to know, on your behalf, what editors want to buy, which ones might want to buy yours, and then to persuade them that your book is what they want. Obviously they vary in how well they do all that, just as they vary in how much and how good their editorial input is. And it's probably true that a terrible agent is worse for your career than no agent. But as well as the fact that there are some publishers who just don't take unagented submissions and so are closed to you without one, and that an agent will be more reluctant to take a book on if it's already been rejected by publishers, a good agent is probably the best single thing, after writing a stonkingly good book, you can do for your career.

Virtually all agents used to come from an editorial background, though now they also come from rights, marketing, publicity, or even have been agents from the beginning of their career: if you feel strongly that one or other focus is important to you, it might be worth researching that kind.

I won't rehearse here all the reasons why I wouldn't be without my agent for all the tea in China, but it's certainly true. Some of those reasons are specific to her and how she works, if you like, but others - perhaps the majority - are true of any half-way decent agent.

Emma

Janstar, I've done it both ways, just for your information. First two non-fiction books went straight to publisher without agent, but I have to say that I now find it absolutely invaluable to have an agent for my children's books. He has been able to open doors that would without a doubt remained resolutely shut to me - foreign deals, television interest, literary prizes - he's very on the ball and has totally helped to progress my career. I have far more earning potential now with an agent than I ever did without (in fact, my first two books earned me nothing, although I loved doing them).

Fascinating thread.

Best advice I can give at this stage is to find people who've done that and are willing to tell you how; but you'll have to search hard and be willing to pay, both in time and money.

What I don't fully understand about your position, Terry, is that you say on the one hand (i) don't edit for an agent, but (ii) do seek advice from those 'in the know'. I presume this includes editorial advice - since you yourself give editorial advice for a fee.

I’m sure Naomi is right, that the kind of writer who makes it into print is unlikely to be the one who rejects all external advice. Of course, we can all agree that the best person for whom to undertake revisions is the editor who has just bought your book! Then it's a straightforward calculation - am I prepared to make these changes in order to get into print? But failing that, as second best, I know I'd rather listen to editorial advice from an agent who has taken me on and is investing time and money in my future as a writer - who 'gets' my writing sufficiently to take me on from amongst the toppling heaps of submissions on his desk - who has pitched his lot in with mine, so to speak, and who also (up to the point when my manuscript is sold) also provides his advice for nothing, than to pay for one-off advice from an editorial agency. For me, doing this last would be a second best to having an agent - and following the advice would always be a greater risk, since it comes from a person less committed to my future success as a writer.

Yes, plenty of writers get published without an agent - though I for one could not imagine continuing unrepresented once I had landed a deal – negotiating alone the minefields which follow - unless I had a background in the industry or had access to excellent advice and support from industry insiders. But it is surely the best and most straightforward route - the easiest way past the slush pile, and the most promising route into the major publishing houses. I can't see any reason at least not to try the agent route first.

Rosy



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And Casey is dead right about agents not wanting to take on a ms that has already done the rounds of half the publishing houses under its own steam and been rejected!