Thanks Terry

It's good to see that there's someone who does not think that I am being unreasonable or over sensitive in response to a negative report.

I don't mind if my book is rubbish – I enjoyed it! I think that is the point of view of many would-be writers, and probably published writers as well. I think the reader that I had - and all readers - should keep that in mind.

I've been to some writing workshops where some of the stuff read out has been awful. But I always focus on the positives or try and engage with the other person to find out why they write the way they do - because obviously they get a buzz from it, which is surely the main thing.

Actually this morning I did write back to the agency putting the same points as in my posting. I don't want a refund from them, any sympathy, or even a second reading. I just wanted to rant and moan.

The problem is that people are just too cynical and quick to criticize. Professional writing is a great way of getting this poison out of our systems - The Guardian Guide is positively dripping with the stuff.

But it's all a bit pointless and painful in the end. Whatever happened to mutual support and encouragement? It seems the only place you get that now is in support groups for alcoholism and drug dependency.

Beadle,

There is probably a natural growing-up cycle for anyone who wants to be a writer. When you're young at it, you need lots of encouragement and help. You also need good teachers who can show you the mechanics of good writing without smothering your enthusiasm. Then you begin to build your confidence and learn how to put your thoughts into a reasonable order, so that other people can understand you. At this stage, however, you are still a long way from being a professional writer. As you approach the time to leave school, so to speak, you need to work out whether writing is what you most want to do in life or if it's going to be just for personal pleasure. The former is what I call a 'professional' approach – which doesn't necessarily mean being a writer as a paid career, but it does mean learning how to produce work that, if it was published, would find an audience who can respond to its intent and meaning, whether mass-market or more specialised.

The problem is that most writers don't get to go through this growing up process. Yes, we all write stories at school, but they're not commented on by teachers from the standpoint of how to write professionally (well, not commonly anyway). The double problem is that we tend to believe that they have actually done this. Hence, when someone sends a manuscript to an agent or publisher or consultancy, they can think they're in the position of a nearly-mature writer whose book just needs a gentle touch or two to have it published. But in fact, they're still at infant school level. Agents and publishers, of course, don't need to address this gap; they simply say 'No, thanks'. But a consultancy must do so (if it wants to get paid, at any rate). I would say this is probably the single biggest problem to address, from the reviewer's point of view. For example, I do see manuscripts that show much promise; however, even with these, there will be a lot of work to do if the writer seriously wants to be published. And when you point this out to a writer, it's then up to them which they take of the only two options, really, that are available:

1) Take fully on board the comments that apply – to the point where they may even demolish one's ego about how great a writer one is; then, keeping the enthusiasm alive, start again, determined to do it right, whatever it takes; or

2) Dismiss the criticism and continue on in one's fantasy world.

I guess there's a third option, too, which is simply to give up writing.

By the way, I'm not implying in any way that this applies to you, Beadle. It's just that our exchange got me thinking about the broader picture of writing here.

Terry

Thanks Terry

I agree with what you are saying. I like the school analogy - but it did make me wonder how many bullies are floating around the 'school of writing'?

I think you put your finger on the crux of my problem and the major source of my ire.

I write for a living, so I guess that makes me a professional in my field at least. I write about mortgages and businesses and credit insurance and some more about mortgages. I know my stuff, I meet my deadlines, I like the people I meet along the way and I enjoy the life that it gives me.

I don't tend to think too much about how I write or my craft – although I always try to write as well as I can - but occasionally somebody will say 'I really liked what you wrote', either from a reader or the client/publication I am writing for.

So, I pay my way with my writing and I'm a big boy and I can the kind of report I got about my book on the chin.

I’ve had experience of working with people in journalism and other forms of commercial writing where I have had to comment on their work and help them develop their own style. Often it is not very good, it needs improving or is just another style.

But as you say, you need to show them the mechanics, offer them some options of approach and challenge the way they do things. This will help them and, in my experience, will also help you improve your own work by building trust and respect with other writers.

Maybe I didn't understand the true purpose of these consultancies and the role of the reader. Perhaps I should first go off and join a writing circle and bounce my ideas and work around other like-minded people, before I venture out in to the commercial world.

But I agree with you - and I can see your views come from experience - it is a very difficult balance that consultancies and readers like yourself must make to provide would-be writers with realistic feedback on their work without either sugaring the bill or snuffing out their enthusiasm.

From my personal experience I felt the balance was not there.

Hi Beadle, you raise some very interesting points. Like you, I used to write about finance for a living. In my case it was equity research written to very tight deadlines for some very bright people with very short attention spans, who were likely to rip my head off if I got my facts wrong.

Moving to write fiction, I have shown samples of my work in the last year to several people, including members of this site, literary agents and friends. Most of the feedback I received was encouraging and helpful to a greater or lesser degree. But I’ve also had some technical criticism of dubious provenance, there has been the odd hint that I am being presumptuous in thinking I can write fiction, and my motives for doing so have been questioned. Naturally, my confidence was shaken, and my concentration was destroyed at the time.

My response to the negativity was to question right back. What were the critic’s credentials? I never had an answer that earnt my respect. So my response was to carry on writing. I’m now represented by an excellent literary agent, and hope that under his guidance, my novel will end up in a publishable state.

There are bullies everywhere are you are right to challenge them. Do keep on writing, though.

Adele.

Well, I think the consultancy reader is put in an awkward position. His or her role is not to give someone a creative writing lesson, or to irresponsibly offer false hope to a writer. A consultant assesses whether the novel, firstly, works as a novel; secondly: whether there's a market for the novel. Unlike an agency or publisher, a consultant has to read all of a manuscript that's quite often unreadable and has to back up what they say. No one ever writes in and says: I just want to know what this is like. They say they want to know if the novel is publishable, and then get uppity if it's pointed out to them that it isn't.

Often the novel is without potential and this is obvious in the first paragraph. As long as you are not rude or misrepresent the novel, or judge it by an inappropriate standard, or not refer to the text, then the kindest thing to say by way of encouragement is to suggest the writer moves on to something else. Even then, you are liable to be sniped at or called a bully for doing the job you were paid to do. Sometimes you even feel the stalker's breath on the nape of your neck. It's a thankless task, especially when you take it seriously and dislike being dishonest or fobbing people off with sweet nothings.

Faze, do you seriously think that you can judge the potential of an entire novel by reading only the first paragraph? That seems absurd to me.

Adele.

I absolutely agree with you Adele.

Where are these reader's credentials? If, for example, they are unpublished and they are giving you an opinion that your work in publishable, on what basis do they form this view?



<Added>

I absolutely agree with you Adele.

Where are these readers credentials? If, for example, they are unpublished and they are giving you an opinion that your work is unpublishable, on what basis do they form this view?

I'm a bit late to this thread but I'd like to add that I've never had an experience as bad as some of the nightmares outlined in the thread this far. I've dealt with idiots off and on including people hopelessly ill-informed and out of touch but not usually at the sharp business end.

How an agent would survive with readers completely out of touch with the current situation in a market beats me.

A cheap and workable alternative is often to work with a writers group in your area and/or find people yourself who are in touch with what is going on and get them to read your work independently. I've known both approaches to pay off.

Adele,

It's time you let this one go.

For the benefit of everyone else, and to save Adele having to come clean, the bully she is referring to is me. Several months ago, I approached Adele's work in the usual manner of bullies, i.e. I spent about an hour of my time giving honest and reasoned feed-back on her piece, trying to do my absolute best to help. Like all tyrants, I made the mistake of apologising for not having had the time to comment on the whole piece, but thought that a detailed look at the first couple of paras might be useful (so you can see, Faze, you've touched a button with your comment about how much can be told from the first paragraph – which I agree with, by the way).

Adele bravely stood up to the bully by proceeding to slag him off and pull down his reputation at every given opportunity. The bully, rather than fight in public, wrote to Adele privately, and during their exchanges he apologised twice to her, accepting that he should have tried to comment on the whole piece. But Adele realised that you can't afford to let bullies off that lightly, so a few months later she once again sniped at – sorry, bravely faced – the bully again in public. She did not refer to him by name, of course, for it doesn't do to give bullies undue publicity, but it was obvious to all who know her to whom she referred. The bully wrote to her in private again and her response this time was:

"Since you shredded my work in public, the appropriate response would have been to apologise in public. This is my final word on this subject."

Well, it obviously wasn't. (It might be worth pointing out here that Adele actually incorporated most of the bullies original suggestions in her re-write of the savaged piece.) Anyway, at this point, I went public and said that I was not going to apologise three times.

There are two mysteries about this bully's behaviour: the first is why no one else has complained about his comments on this site with such vehemence and anger; the second is why, Adele, you simply can't let this go. After all, if my comments were so off-beam, why didn't you just ignore them for the rubbish they were and move on?

So, apologies to everyone else. It isn't like me to air this kind of thing in public. But frankly, I'm fed up with being slagged off, especially since my original intention was to help someone improve their writing.


Terry


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Sorry everyone, but I'm not finished yet. Sometimes, you just have to stand up for yourself ...

The consultancy I work for is urging me to do more reports at the moment, because they're so good; the Open College of the Arts is asking me take on more students; if you go to my WW showcase pages, you'll find a list of recommendations for my editing/reviewing work, several by people on this site.

Hi Adele,

Can you judge a novel on the first paragraph? Sort of, you can. You can sense if the writer is in control in the first paragraph. You can tell if the writing is in anyway weak. Frequently, they will be cliches of observation or phrase, no voice, no trigger, no sense of significance, no clear character viewpoint etc. I'm not saying that we'd only read the first paragraph, we read the whole book, but you get an idea. Sometimes the writer has just started too early and only needs to cut a bit, but often problems that occur early are carried through until the end. The main problem I encounter is that there's no pace or tension in the writing and no drive.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that publishers and agents will put the book down if the first paragraph is weak. They might skip to the middle to see if things have improved, but generally, the first para needs to be outstanding. I know this because an agent told me.

Readers at the consultancy I work for are all published writers and credentials are on the website.

<Added>

should be - there will be cliches - sorry. Tetchy today

Terry, if you're looking for a punch up, you've picked the wrong person. I continue to find your approach hostile and unhelpful, but I am unwilling to have you waste any more of my time with your power trip. I have a book to write.

Goodbye,

Adele.

Faze, thanks for your reply. I think the opening paragraph of a book can be the hardest thing to get right and, when judging work-in-progress, may not be representative of the rest of the book. You might be missing some gems by not reading on.

Adele.

Adele,

Er ... me looking for a punch-up? I was the one who apologised several months ago. You're the one who's brought it up in public several times since. However, this is probably another sign that I need to attend Managing the Bully in Oneself classes and find out why I keep getting this wrong.

Regarding you not wasting any more of your time on this because you've got a book to write, I just hope you mean what you say this time.

<Added>

Final apologies to everyone else on this thread. I confess that this has got under my skin and that I really should know better. However, I promise that this is my last word on the subject, providing Adele keeps quiet about it too.

Hi Adele,


Re Gems

I know what you mean, but it's seldom the case. Weak first paragraph usually means weak novel (I say this reluctantly but based on the experience of reading about 600 of them). If the author isn't aware that the first pararaph needs to be strong, then what? Special pleading?

Of course, some first paras are just bit slow. Others show telltale signs of the writer not being able to write at all or toomany colluding teething troubles. It depends whether the problem lies in the prose (usually, this won't improve) or the storytelling (which is easier to edit or sort out).

faze

The real debate here lies between those who feel they have been wronged by a reader, and those defending what is obviously a difficult job being a reader.

For me the problem lies in the role of consultants. In a commercial market, if an agent or a publisher does not like a something, the final decision must surely be a business one.

For consultants their opinion of somebody's work - or at least the opinion of their readers - does not have a direct commercial impact as they have little to gain whether it is published or not.

Their business decision is whether they can get enough writers to submit manuscripts and whether they can make enough money. But the success of the consultant will depend on the quality of their readers, the feedback from their clients and therefore the word of mouth recommendations.

It all hangs on their readers. And their readers have to ask themselves if they are happy to write the reports they're paid for, and make the opinions they're paid for, based ultimately on their own self-belief that their views are valid and relevant.

If they are comfortable with this situation, then they should take the money and sleep soundly at night. But they should also expect some gnashing of teeth and criticism from the recipients of their reports.

Or don’t the critics want to be criticized?