Can anyone out there with experience of publishers confirm whether this observation is true? I rang my agent the other day(book one unpublished and now 'parked'to get their response on the re-writes I'd made in my second novel. They confirmed the novel was now 'ready' but then after a long pause said they weren't sure how to proceed as none of the publishers who'd read and rejected bok one would be interested in reading it. I felt like saying then why's the bloody point in getting me to re-wite the damn thng, but I didn't, as I'm still so gratful just to be agented but I am wondering - could this be true - in which case how does anyone who's first novel got rejected ever get their second one punlished? Should I change my name?!

Hi, Polyanna, and welcome to WriteWords

You do not say what genre your novel is, and one can only answer in generalities. It is estimated by Agents that only one in ten of first novels that they sign up are published, and, presumably there will be a percentage of second novels from authors on their list which also do not find a publisher.
The importance of rewriting to their specifications, is not purely to bring the ms up to a level that will attract a publisher, but also to show them the author is capable of understanding what is required to make it a commercial proposition, so the rewrite will not have been in vain.
You also have to bear in mind that, because of the credit crunch, the publishing industry is going through a difficult time at the moment and many publishers are being a lot more cautious.
The important thing to remember is perserverence pays off, and the publishing inductry works on 'glacial time', ie, nothing happens fast, but, rather, over months and even years.
Good luck, and, no, unless you ar "Barabara Cartland" don't go changing your name

If you need any help navigating the site, feel free to ask.


- NaomiM



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Meanwhile, get stuck in to writing Book 3.

Hi Pollyanna, and welcome to WriteWords.

none of the publishers who'd read and rejected bok one would be interested in reading it.

I'm a bit surprised about this, as I think most good agents have experience of taking on a writer who they love and failing to sell the first book, but then having the second well received, if not actually bought. If your agent does have faith in Two, s/he should be raring to send it out, while if they don't have that faith, they should either be getting you to do more work on it or, to be brutal, giving up on you.

Changing your writing name is advice that's sometimes offered to published authors - sometimes called midlist authors or mid-career authors - whose track record in sales is static or dipping, as it may be the best hope for getting a new contract. But I've never heard it suggested to unpublished authors. Editors know perfectly well that it may take one or more novels before a writer actually writes one which they can/will buy, so they're quite used to seeing another MS from a writer whose work they've seen before: the key is an agent who has faith in it, and therefore can sell to them it with real conviction.

Emma

Thanks Naomi, Thanks Emma.

Are aspiring writers generally feeling the credit crunch? Are publishers taking on less raw talent? I wonder if this means 'celebrity' tomes will increase as more and more z listers cash in on their 'name'?

Emma, I think you've hit one nail on the head - my agents enthusiasm - or lack of it - regarding marketing book two. I'm seriously wondering whether he is too complacent - other big name authers paying his mortgage so he takes a punt on small fry like me but really, it doesn't matter whether I sell or not. Perhaps I should look for a fresh, hungry agent? My background is in sales and I must confess I wasn't hearing any drive when we talked about what to do next.

Am I able to send it to another agent/publisher - to guage their response. Does anyone have experience of moving agents - and if so, was it awkward?

Are aspiring writers generally feeling the credit crunch? Are publishers taking on less raw talent? I wonder if this means 'celebrity' tomes will increase as more and more z listers cash in on their 'name'?

Publishers are having to cut costs, so it may mean a borderline book won't get taken on, but zedlebrity books may be one of the things which get axed, because they cost a fortune to buy and promote, have very little hope of foreign rights sales, and have a very short shelf life... There seems to be some feeling that it needs to be a bona fide celebrity - someone who's actually done something - to make that particular formula work.

Emma, I think you've hit one nail on the head - my agents enthusiasm - or lack of it - regarding marketing book two. I'm seriously wondering whether he is too complacent - other big name authers paying his mortgage so he takes a punt on small fry like me but really, it doesn't matter whether I sell or not.

It may not be complacency exactly, it maybe that he's bad at giving bad news (lots of agents are, because by nature they're bouncy, positive people people) which is really that he doesn't have any faith in Two selling. A good big agent, though, shouldn't give you the impression that s/he doesn't think you matter. Yes, they probably spend more time on sorting out Philip Pullman's affairs, but if they can't give your work full confidence and attention when it needs it, they should be honest and not take you on on the first place. Or be honest (ouch!) and suggest that it's time for a parting of the ways.

Perhaps I should look for a fresh, hungry agent? My background is in sales and I must confess I wasn't hearing any drive when we talked about what to do next.

It does sound like he hasn't any confidence in the new book. Is that because the old book wasn't as well received as he expected, or is it this book that doesn't float his boat?

Am I able to send it to another agent/publisher - to guage their response.

Basically, no. Agents don't poach off each other, so no agent will look at your work until you've given notice to your current agent. And your current agent would be within his rights to be furious if you started sending direct to publishers (many of the mainstream imprints don't take unagented submissions anyway). If he's run out of places to send One - or Two - then you could suggest you sending it direct to small independents who aren't really on his radar - Snowbooks or Two Ravens, for example. But you need to do

Does anyone have experience of moving agents - and if so, was it awkward?

The Society of Authors can advise, if you're a member: they're incredibly knowledgeable and helpful about this kind of thing. It's perfectly possible to leave an agent: you give whatever notice is in your contract (three months is common, I think) and once you're on notice, you can start looking for another agent. One thing to remember is that if, after all, your old agent sells the book during the notice period, they have the handling of that book and contract (including commission) for evermore, and there may be a worry that an agent won't bother to work hard for an 'orphaned' book, since they don't have a stake in your future career. Sometimes the two agents agree to split the commission, and the new agent takes over keeping an eye on that novel, which is obviously a good solution.

If you do give notice, one thing that's very important is to get a list of where One went. A new agent will probably not be interested in One, since it's already done the rounds and exhausted the possibilities, but it's just possible that a new agent may see the book in a different way (with or without further revisions) and have radically different ideas about which editors might like it, in which case they may. But basically, brand new, fresh, un-seen Two has to be your calling card for bagging a new agent: you can then discuss what to do about One if you get to the point of meeting.

Emma

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"But you need to do"

Dunno what happened to the rest of that sentence. I was meaning to say that it sounds as if you need to have a state-of-the-nation conversation with your current agent, about the full picture of what the future - if any - is for Two (and more generally for your work. And is he interested in Three assuming you've got that in your head?) and why he thinks it's all not working at the moment. Whether you can do what he says would take to make it work, and whether you want to do it (which isn't the same thing at all), is another matter. I fear the conversation may be painful, but otherwise it's a bit of an impasse at the moment.


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One more thought - do you know the details of what editors said when they were rejecting One? Another painful thing, perhaps, but it would give you a bit of steer about what's not working, and whether it was that particular book, or more generally about the kind of thing you write.

It's been said that Celebrity biographies pay for debut authors, so if they suffer a drop in sales, there is a knock on effect down the line.

Has your Agent explained why he doesn't think Bk.2 will sell? Is it too much like Bk.1? Did you discuss what he wanted fom Bk.2 before and during the writing? You have now done a re-write and he's still not happy, so presumably it doesn't conform to his idea of what will sell, so you need to ask him what you need to do to the ms, or whether you should just move on to Bk.3.
You could send it to an editorial agency and ask their advice on how it could be made more commercial.
I asked about genre, because, eg, Chick-lit is suffering a bit of stagnation in the UK market, but is more popular in Ireland.


- NaomiM

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oh, crossed with Emma.

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Rather than try to change Agents and find someone who will take on bks 1&2, I would get on with writing book 3 while you still have the assistance of the agency to help you knock it into shape.

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Maybe this is a question for Emma, but if it's a Agency, rather than a one man band, won't they have young and eager 'junior' agents there, who can take on a new author?

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...I recall we've had members who were trying to choose between being taken on by one experienced agent, or by a junior agent who was acting under the guidance of an uber-agent.

Hello and welcome.
If this were me I would first want to know WHY he thinks there no point sending book two out.
Is it too much like bk one that no-one wanted? Is not commercial enough? Is it in a genre no-one is buying at the mo?
You need a straight answer before you can make any decisions. I would send an email asking outright.
HB x

There is no point in re-writing to an agent's demands. Agents don't publish books. Their job is to handle contracts. If your agent will/can not sell your book, just tell him that you're going to try yourself. If he argues, sack him. It's your career. You've written two books which your agent cannot sell. If you believe in these books - and you must do to have written them - take them somewhere else. Don't let an agent - an intermediary who has no power at all on what does or does not get published - make you feel your work is not worth publishing. It's ludicrous to consider upsetting the agent by trying to place your books yourself. This is like worrying what your plumber will think - who has not been able to fix your leaking pipes - if you fix it yourself or find another plumber.

Since this view might upset some people here, it comes with the usual caveat: this is just my opinion; if you don't agree, feel free to ignore it.

Terry

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As for getting a view from an editorial agency on how to make your book more commercial, that's like asking the plumber's bookie for advice on how to fix your pipes.

Hello, Pollyanna,

What a horrible experience. I imagine you feel like throttling your agent, and few of us would blame you.

There may, however, be practical reasons for what he's saying. A number of publishers are seriously cutting back at the moment, and books which three months ago would have been in with a chance are not even being considered. I only know this because when my own book was being auctioned, (the day after the first rumours about trouble at Borders), two of the publishers dropped out of my auction saying the board had told them they couldn't afford to bid. A week after I got my deal, my agent was trying to sell another book she felt was at least as good as mine - and this time had no bids at all.

This sounds depressing, but may contain an element of hope. This situation is temporary - if publishers stop buying books altogether then they go out of business. But it may explain why your agent doesn't think it's worth sending your second book out at the moment - and may mean they think there's more hope for it later. He may have suggested the rewrites at a time when the market was good (ie pre early November, which is when it began to go pear-shaped) but have considerably less confidence now.

What is very clear is that Naomi, Emma and Helen are all wise in suggesting you actually ask the agent himself this question - why doesn't he think it's worth putting the book out now, and what does he suggest instead?

If the answer's aren't satisfactory, then yes, I'd agree it's time to think of changing agent. For me the real alarm bell is that 'long pause'. My own experience differs from Terry's, and I wouldn't personally go along with the plumber analogy, but an agent who treats you like this is just plain rude.

Good luck - and please do let us know how it goes! I'm new here, but there are some wonderful people on this site who are just bursting with helpful experience, and I'm sure they can advise you on the next stage.

Louise


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Apologies for horrible ungrammatical typo on 'answer's'. im litrate reely.

Since this view might upset some people here

Might?! Career suicide.


- NaomiM

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There are unsatisfactory agents out there, but one shouldn't jump to conclusions that yours is one of those.

Might?! Career suicide.

As usual, I've no idea what you're referring to. Is this my career or yours?

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What do you mean by an 'unsatisfactory agent'?

I think it's bizarre to say agents have no power or influence over whether a book gets published or not. It's just not true. You might not like it, but that's a different matter...

Pollyanna, I agree with Emma that you need to have a frank discussion with your agent about how he sees your career progressing. All the best.

Some real food for thought here - thanks guys. The genre is crime, which I know is tricky at the best of times.

Here's how I see it: Firstly, my background is sales, as I mentioned before, so I have a very practical attitude to things, the point I'm trying to make is that I have never been precious with my work and when my agent suggested what at times were quite radicak changes I tugged my cloth cap and got on with it, grateful to be taken on and in fairness ended up with a better book. (book 1). My agent, by the way, loved - and still claims to love - this book. However, when I saw the responses to it (they were on the whole extremely flattering) there was a recurring dislike of one particular thread. Now, me being simple, I'd have removed this, but my agent said not to, that the publishers were slow in catching on.
Just to add a bit of background, at the time my agent took me on another who I'd submitted to said she loved my writing, characters and plot - but flagged up that in her experience publishers wouldn't go for this thread through the book, but she would happliy look at my next novel.

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However, I felt I didn't need to take her up on this as I'd signed with my agent who thought this was going to fly.

Seems like everyone else was right - but we all make bad calls from time to time - I don't blame my agent for that. Book two has been written with the critisms of the publishers who saw book 1 (and the original agent who declined novel 1)in mind. So therefore, to my mind, its a case of going back and saying 'you know that book you liked but wasn't keen on x - well this one has all the bits you liked and no x so give it a go.' I know I'm being simplistic but I just wasn't getting any vibes - yet my agent is notoriously blunt so I'd be surprised if they were trying to spare my feelings - most converstations are like visiting the headmaster's office.

Unless responses from publishers are uneccesarily kind when they don't mean to be(anyone with experience please jump in)then I'd have thought they'd be happy to read book 2. S'funny, I thought when I got my agent that was it, but I'm begining to suspect what my husband is saying is true, that the moment I signed with them the book has been dusted down once or twice but in the main sat in some desk drawer. Sorry, miserable day, grey skies, hard to be positive.

Might?! Career suicide. As usual, I've no idea what you're referring to. Is this my career or yours?

If I was the writer ignoring the advice of the agent, then mine.
If you're the person advising such a course of action to your clients, then yours.

What do you mean by an 'unsatisfactory agent'?

You know who's example, and the problems extraction from their contract involved.



- NaomiM