One of Terry's crits on WW yonks ago not only got me published, I believe that it raised my own bar and set me on the path to further publication. Much of what was said in that crit, in terms of technique, I've never forgotten and hopefully never repeated. It was my first 'proper' story and still means a lot to me. (As an aside, I actually lost the whole thing due to a computer crash, but thankfully, Dee had saved a copy, so it was kind of blessed.)

On another point, when the earlier incarnation of the present project was offered a 3 book deal by a small US publisher, I lost all perspective in my joy. Terry advised me to tread very carefully. I didn't know who these publishers were and should watch it, as all that glitters, is not gold. At the time, I rather arrogantly (moi?) accused him of pissing on my dreams. Yeah, I knew better all right. But shortly afterwards I started to have serious conversations about the novel with my soon-to-be agent and he repeated the same advice, almost word for word. He even checked over the contract, and guess what? It was hokey as hell. A novel every year with no advance and 2% royalty (yes, 2%), with penalties attached should I miss deadlines. Everything that Terry advised, bluntly but honestly, turned out to be true and I sincerely apologised. The US publisher these days? Nowhere to be found, I believe.

All this advice has been free, so excuse me if I react to members undermining the man, his abilities or his profession. Seems to me that he only wanted to extend that advice to a broader audience to save them the same trouble. If that is facile, then I'm a virgin.

Issy, thanks for those insights too.

JB

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By the way Terry, if I ever did decide to use an editorial service, you're the 1st place I'd look.

Terry, stop getting out of your round by sneaking off to post big long threads,that I'm too drunk to agree or disagree with. By the way, mine's a treble.

Yours

Algernon Flippant

p.s everything I have ever written is available on ebay.

Oh Bestseller that made me laugh so much I've just woken the cat up - and he's been deaf as a post since the Dyson incident of 1998.

Now who's getting the McCoys in?

Barbara, Issy, thanks for the kind words.

You too, Waxy. Maybe one of the hardest lessons we all have to learn is that if we're serious about writing, it's going to be a life-long struggle with some highs and lows but never really a point where we've 'made it'. Trouble is, the world at large loves stories where a poor nobody suddenly makes it big and rich (e.g. J K Rowling writing her novel in cafes, making a cup of tea last for hours, etc). Which means we all get affected by the need for validation and are constantly being tempted to go for questionable deals (not necessarily suspect) instead of sticking to the long game.

On what you were saying earlier - I think writers have to do both: go their own way and get as much learning and knowledge as they can. Which is actually not a contradiction if you're busting a gut to be the best you can be. In fact, the contradiction eventually hones your instincts, so you know which bits to take for learning purposes and which bits to ignore.

Algy, in fact I'm on the run from loan sharks after coughing up for the last round I bought at yours (I know they do things differently on Jersey, but there's something distinctly unattractive about a person who carries their own bucket from bar to bar and then wants it filled with Pina Colada and a (real) umbrella whenever it's someone else's round). Now go and do something useful like walk the dog, or should that be squawk the blog?



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Shika, thanks too for your good common sense comments.

All this advice has been free, so excuse me if I react to members undermining the man, his abilities or his profession. Seems to me that he only wanted to extend that advice to a broader audience to save them the same trouble. If that is facile, then I'm a virgin.

I wouldn't know about the second thing you mention there(!), but as to the first, I'd like to clarify something. I wrote:

By all means have an ad. By all means post a serious discussion of dubious writing services. But don't sneak the former into the latter. I'm sure it seemed very harmless at the time, but think of the impact on the reader, given the context. It's transparent, facile, irritating, exasperating, adjective-provoking... Just plain irritating. I think I'd better go away now. And drink.

So the "facile" remark was quite unambiguously linked directly and solely to the technique of sneaking an advert inside a discussion - and not to the content of the discussion. I'm perfectly willing to agree that the actual content of the advice Terry gave was sound.

But Terry then wrote:

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond. Yes, I do have strong views on this subject, which I tried to express here, although for at least one person I apparently didn't manage to rise above 'facile'.

My point here is I cannot see how any reasonable person could construe what I wrote in this way. The reason I'm bothering to explain this is that what we have here is an situation - possibly a deliberate technique - one sees all too often today:

(1) Person A makes a limited point in respect of something written by Person B.

(2) Person B then construes this limited point as being a general and provocative point (i.e. specifically here - instead of the linking of discussion and advert being facile, the whole discussion is taken as being characterised as facile).

(3) Person B then expresses their erroneous interpretation, together with indignation at being so attacked.

(4) Persons C, D & E, having only seen Person B's interpretation, express further indignation on Person B's behalf.

(5) Person B feels vindicated.

Of course, this can happen perfectly innocently - in which case it is merely unfortunate.

It can also be a deliberate technique - in which case it certainly is facile in itself.

Anyone else still awake?

JB

It would be best if this thread returned to its original subject.
It should be remembered that a number of WW members are employed by reputable editorial agencies, and £5 per 1000 words for a several page report is the average charge a writer should expect to pay for such a service, and as such is not excessive.
It is also best if people avoided writing anything that may be construed as advertising their own services on this part of the Site.



- NaomiM

Naomi,

I'm still waiting for you to explain your comment that I'm breaking the law - a pretty serious claim to fling at someone. So, I'd appreciate you showing me specifically what law you think I'm breaking, so I can defend myself if necessary or, on being enlightened, apologise and retract my comments. Or if you can't do so, the please withdraw the accusation.

You imply that I'm knocking all agencies. That is not the case - as I've said several times, I'm talking about some practices by some agencies. Also, I don't recall claiming that £5 per 1000 words was 'excessive'. I said that some agencies make charges that may not be necessary according to what the author actually needs.

I'm not sure how you know every agency which employs WW members is 'reputable' - have you checked them all out? What are your criteria?

As for advertising: first of all, I wasn't, and plenty of people on this thread have agreed with that. So perhaps you could explain why you've chosen to believe the contrary.

Also, you'd probably be advised to define what you mean by 'anything that might be construed as adveritising'. Otherwise, we'll be expecting you to clamp down hard on anyone who plugs their latest book on the site.

Terry

Ah. Are we to understand then that one cannot advertise, promote or otherwise talk about other editorial services on WW because WW itself offers an editorial service? I'm not being argumentative, I would sincerely like to know.

And being told what to think and say all the time is wearing. We are all adults here, we pay our membership, and suppression of any topic has never been the way to get to the heart of a matter.

Sorry, Naomi, I know you're simply trying to quench fires, but I still can't see what Terry has done to warrant the vitriol aimed at him in this thread, and can only suspect personal agendas.

JB

Isn't it David's job to worry about these things? As far as i'm concerned, not only has the thread not been pulled, it was highlighted to the main forum list. If David hasn't got a problem with it, nor should we.

You're right Casey, it's David's call. I was just expressing a personal opinion as the thread was deteriorating into a slanging match.
I have nothing to add so I'll bow out.


- NaomiM

Terry, as you know my blog is perfectly formed, including all of its six legs. Four of them actually wear leg warmers knitted my her majesty Wayne Sleep.Furthermore anyone who's anyone knows that you always have a pickled egg in a Pina Colada. Now, get to the bar you soppy Southerner and let's hammer Christmas - just like baby Jesus would have wanted.

Yours

E. Hemingway (deceased)

I thought there was a part of this site dedicated to members' services anyway, where they could advertise?

With all due respect Terry, you do speak a lot of crap.

Traveller, if there are specific elements of Terry's original post that you disagree with them please discuss them properly.


- NaomiM

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...we are writers, after all, not painters (for those who've been following the 'best ever writer' thread , so surely we can contruct our arguments properly.