Facile? That's a bit strong isn't it?

Anyway, on the salient point, my take is that while editorial services must have their benefits, there is also much to be said for learning the hard way. It's what makes you grow, I think, and there is always the danger in relying too heavily on advice and support, rather than on your own gut feelings. At some point, if you do make it, you're going to have to deliver those goods yourself, so surely it's better to learn at least a little about the editing craft yourself?

JB

Jess,

I don't think 'inaccurate' is the right word; difference of opinion, maybe. I'll defend the singer-songwriter comparison, on the grounds that it's a valid way to gain instant feed-back from people who are a likely customer base for what may well be the end product. This just isn't possible with novels. At a slightly different level, I listen to quite a lot of folk music via the internet while I write. When I hear a track I like, I'll often seek out the album there and then and buy it. Quite often, the band don't have a contract with a major label, and I buy the album off their personal website. Again, this can't possibly happen with novels, even self-published ones.

I said an agent's 'essential' job is to negotiate contracts, i.e. not their only one. Yes, they do other stuff as well. But some agents are increasingly emphasising their perceived (and to a degree actual) role as gatekeepers between writer and publisher.

I wasn't being snidey in saying most readers who work for agencies are writers - that's my experience. Readers for the large agency I worked for were mostly writers, children's writers as it happens. But in the interests of fairness, I've just checked the websites of two other big agencies. The Writers' Workshop lists its readers as 'Editors': I counted 25 writers and 5 editors. The Literary Consultancy lists its readers as 'readers': I counted 21 writers and 9 editors.

You'd have to ask the agencies what are their requirements for a reader/editor. As for working independently, I'd say the main qualification is word of mouth.

Terry

I don't think you can get enough advice and support at the beginning, JB. I posted continually on her, read every how-to book in print, got my editorial report done...it's only now, 2 books and a couple of years later that all of this is coming together and i feel like i really know what i'm doing. I feel i'd still be in the wilderness, style and technique-wise, if i hadn't had all that help.

I suppose we are all different though - just as some sportsmen are naturals whereas others need individual coaching before they really fly.

Not that i'm flying high yet

x

<Added>

on herE

Poor her! I bet she got very tired of being posted on all the time!

But I agree with you. Feedback and support is essential to the aspiring writer - stuff it, to all writers. There is precious little to be found in social circles, isn't there, where everyone assumes you want to be the next (insert bestselling novelist's name here) and haven't got the first clue about the process, about how much we suffer and bleed, and how much we deserve to be crowned as kings or queens of our own reasonably sized countries in the sun. Sigh. No one understands us...

Yes, I would be nowhere without all the support, encouragement and critiques I've had. And look where I am - nowhere! Seriously though, it is vital, I need it as much as the next scribe. I suppose I was just illustrating the fact that your own instincts must come first, no matter what Mr Big Fat Contract Waver or Him Chief Editor says. That only plays a part in the professional world of writing. At the heart of the art, they count for nothing? I think some writers forget that sometimes.

I wouldn't use an editorial service myself, yes because of the expense with no promise of a return, and yes, because I suppose it's easy for me to say at present. But I've had such a widespread variance in opinions to my own works that how can you base what you do on one person's opinion, no matter how qualified?

JB

Well, without wishing to be pedantic you actually said 'essentially, their job is...' not 'their essential job is' which doesn't mean 'not their only job' to me, rather that the essence of their job is etc etc etc...

I don't need to ask the ed consultancies how they define it, I know how 3 of them do as I have/do/or am about to work for them. I was asking you what you see as the essential requirements, seeing it is your views that have started this debate.

I agree, JB, and that is something you can only learn as time moves along. I did a whole rewrite based on one agent's feedback and never again.

And yet the feedback from the editorial agency was well set out under sections, showing clearly where i was going wrong with, for example, chapter structure, something i had never thought about. They also sent me a load of notes about show-not-tell etc.

However, i had asked, in the letter i sent them, that they point out things which would help me with my writing as a whole. I think that is the key with these agencies, you need to be very specific with what you want and make it clear to them.

As i said before, i think the biggest danger is getting an unsympathetic reader. The tone of the other cheaper report i had done was 'Oh, perleeese, whatever made you think that would work?' and my confidence was in shreds by the end of reading it.

Heh ho, it's one helluva learning curve.

x

Confidence. That's just what I was thinking earlier. I may come across like a megalomaniac super-assured bucko, but if someone bursts my bubble while I'm working on a project, that project is likely to go the way of the dodo (take Endangerment Dolls for example). So I'm careful who I show it anyway, and when, and why. I've found WW critiques encouraging over the latest jaunt, but in the wider world, sans mutual support (i.e. when no one has any reason to go easy on me), it can be truly daunting. Particularly on this project, which is so huge and time-consuming, any bursting of bubbles is likely to result in severe keyboard failure for several years...

I know what it's like. You take your baby into town, thinking everyone is going to coo over the blessed thing, and then someone tells you what an ugly hairy beast you're holding and you want to dump it in the nearest skip. That's how I felt after meeting my agent last year. At least he had the decency to know what he was asking me, to understand my vast disappointment, but I've rarely felt so disheartened over writing in my life! Still, you pick yourself up, if you mean business, and you go on, teeth gritted and Uzi cocked. Sometimes, like with Unrequited (£9 something on Amazon.co.uk he he), I wonder if I need that knockback to achieve greater things? I just don't want the knockback to come at my financial expense.

JB

I think for me the bug bear is what do people actually want from these reports?
Validation? Help?
In my writing group three members have got one.
Two were told they were very good and a few tweaks suggested. Neither got an agent. Neither have written anything else.
One got a very detailed rpoert back on everything that was wrong but it was such a big job he didn't bother and started a new project. I think he was right to do so.
It seems to me that for a lot of people it is just putting off the inevitable which is getting your work out there and taking the rejections on the chin. But maybe a lot of writers do get good feed back, make the edits and go on to get a deal.
Has anyone here actually done that?
HB x

I relate totally to your post, JB.

Ah, Endangerment Dolls, the memories...

Helen, i certainly wasn't looking for validation, i sent my script off cos all i was getting was standard rejecs and i wanted to know why.
No, i didn't get a deal, but i got a full requested on my reworked script and i was pleased with that as I felt i had learnt something from my report and that my writing had moved on.

x

A good question. I also feel that that kind of editorial input should really come from an agent or a publisher or both. Why spend the cash when you're not even sure that your book holds weight (in anything other than pages that is)? These are just my misgivings. I'm looking at it from all angles, but I'm not as tenacious as some in that regard. If the rejections were many and all negative, I'd move on to something else. If I spent £500 and then followed some stranger's advice, only to have many rejections and all negative, well, the kettle would pop, as they say*

JB

*They only say this on a small red planet known as Gorgatron, but there you go.

I know what it's like. You take your baby into town, thinking everyone is going to coo over the blessed thing, and then someone tells you what an ugly hairy beast you're holding and you want to dump it in the nearest skip.

Oh, god yes. Babies scattered from here to Penzance. Tsk.

Jess, apologies; I wasn't being clear. I do believe the main function of an agent is to negotiate contracts. They do other things too, but dealing with contracts is the main thing.

As for what agencies require from the readers/editors, I don't know. The one I worked for gave no training, just a sample report and some written guidelines; then got you to do a trial report and if they were happy with it, you were in.

As for individuals, I wasn't being factitious when I said 'word of mouth'. That's what it comes down to. If you produce good work, your clients will tell people about you.

If you mean, what makes a good editor/reader (in relation to the kind of work we're talking about), of the top of my head, I'd say the main things are:

1) An excellent grasp of the technical side of writing, to the point an editor's instincts are fast and accurate about what works and what doesn't - partly within what constitutes good writing in objective terms (as far as there's such a thing - but the paradox must be embraced, not dismissed as subjective) but mostly by what the writer is trying to achieve. This must include understanding the different requirements of different genres and not, for instance, applying blanket rules about what you believe constitutes 'proper' writing.

2) Openness to and encouragement for what the writer wants to achieve from his/her writing, whatever that may be. 2b) Willingness and ability to help the writer find what it is they're trying to achieve.

3) Honesty within the terms of engagement agreed beforehand with the writer, which includes declining the work if the editor doesn't believe he or she can help the writer with this work at this time. This may be, for example, because you don't have enough knowledge of the particular genre the writer is working in.

4) Good pre- and after-care. While keeping the relationship professional, this means taking a genuine interest in one's clients, before and after a report (it goes without saying, this can't be faked).

5) Enthusiasm and desire to produce a great report that you're proud of, every time, because you put the very best of your ability into it, and covered every possible element that you believe can help the writer improve the book.

6) You have to enjoy it. And there's nothing better than guiding a writer to find their own success and improvement.

7) A recognition that the report itself is or should be an enjoyable read, even the tough bits!

Terry

Well, to add my tuppence, an ms service is only as good as the insights and advice it gives, and from my experience back in my salad days when I used this sort of thing twice, it really wasn't up to much.

The first time, the commentator pretty much slashed it, but my experienced self now knows that a whole load of the points that were made (such as you couldn't have a mc with a flaw like a birthmark!)were the incoherent mumblings of someone just as inexperienced as myself. The story wasn't that good but it wasn't that bad, my current critical self would say, and though I am unlikely now to re-edit it, more sophisticated characters have their start in life from that ms.

The second foray into the ms world was to a seemingly reputable editing agency run by a children's writer editor who was previously employed with one of the bigger publishing houses. I am sorry to say that the advice didn't match up to the blurb. I had several pages of standard sheets - as mentioned here such as how to set out a ms, also basics of plot and character, rather than addressing my story specifically. There were quite a few pleasantries about the script, and they were optimistic that it would find a publisher, but gave me very little to work on. It didn't find a publisher, but is a favourite of mine so might come out later. I was deeply disappointed as I wanted them either to say it was ready to go, or to suggest things to improve it. A bit of a wash-out.

I have had far better advice on this forum, and more courteous and friendly than either of this ventures. WWers raise points and even if I don't agree I have to justify why not in my own mind, which often points to shortcomings. All excellent.

It is a very great pity from the writers point of view that Terry is not able to accept any new work, as his comments are detailed, spot-on, hard-hitting, but not negative. It's down-to-earth, quality critiques that we need. Many of us are experts in our day-time job, and through that expertise have earned the right to comment and criticise standards and practices appertaining to our careers. Mine was insurance (retired now) and my experience and qualifications entitled me to be listened to by my peers and the buying business public about practices of which I was either critical or supportive. Terry is doing the same as an expert within his field, and is entitled to be listened to, and to generate a debate in the same way.

I very much agree with all your comments, Issy

I have every reason to thank Terry for all the generous help he has given me with my writing.

Sarah

I try to avoid spats on WW but having used 4 editorial consultancies I was pleased to read Terry's post. Alot of what he said was spot on. I have had good and bad experiences with these agencies. I have been on WW for a long time and it seems as though people get irritated, take things personally and then attack Terry whenever he makes these posts. There are times when I have not always agreed with what he has said but on this topic I really don't see why people are getting so het up. If you work for one of these agencies and you don't do what he is saying you do, why are you so upset? And if like me you have had some experiences that completely refute his position what's the big deal? I did not see the advert at all. People are always touting for business on WW. Remember when Snowbooks wanted us all to vote in some competition? Honestly, I think people need to chill. In general the post was useful and judging by the comments, of interest to a large number of us. Finish.S