Oh, crikey . . .

You see, this is actually the reason I don't post very much any more on WW.

You try to raise a few serious issues and end up having to defend yourself against a whole raft of accusations. For example: I really didn't post this originally to advertise my services. But I get accused of doing so. Which means I then have to decide whether or not to defend myself. If I don't, then the accusations are justified; but if I do, then what comes back, for example, is the bizarre claim that in stating clearly that I'm not open to business, even though I wasn't looking for it in the first place, I'm 'back-tracking'. Which means more defending, which means the post moves further and further away from the subject at hand.

So, I'll state one more time why I posted this originally. And, just as the moral defenders of this site will from now on no doubt be attacking anyone else who mentions their service or book here, I'll also expect them to similarly attack the motivations of anyone who posts something for serious discussion.

I wanted to express concerns I have about some (note: 'some', not 'all' of the practices of some (note: 'some', not 'all' of the manuscript agencies. My motive for doing so is to help new writers who may be tempted to pay a lot of money for something they may not need. These concerns have been growing and this post was triggered by the recent 'offer' of one of the agencies to vet writers' submissions with a view to passing them on to agents for a 10% fee (as I detailed above). This motive arises from me having been helped by more experienced writers throughout my career. I am not looking for editorial work as a result. I am not looking for editorial work, period.

And, Sarah, that's a really low blow.

Terry

<Added>

Smileys unintended.

Hi

A very informative article Terry. I don't think those kind of agencies are for me, but thanks for the insights all the same.

Best

JB

<Added>

Backtracking a little, I can't see how Terry can be accused of promoting his services myself, and even if he is, we as novelists do the same thing every time we mention our books. And some of us mention those books in more than a handful of threads, myself included. Either way, Terry Edge is respected in the industry for what he does, so perhaps when he starts pointing fingers at others who aren't, we should shut up and listen.

Thanks, Waxy. I've always admired the way you take on writing challenges whole-heartedly and learn all your lessons the hard way (with only a bit of kicking and screaming along the way!).

Terry

Waxy, on your added bit:

It's a shame that the sport of Terry-bashing, entertaining to some though it undoubtedly is, tends to obscure the more serious points.

So, to anyone reading this post who's interested in improving their writing: please strip out the anti-Terry sentiments, ignore anything Terry is saying that doesn't interest you, and just consider what's left. If it helps you make a decision about spending a lot of money for a service, fine; this post has served its purpose. The rest is just the usual hot air caused by Terry because he lacks the etiquettes required by the regular posters to this site.

Terry

I guess I only want advice and feedback from people directly involved in the journey and the publication of my stories. I'm a rookie, I know, but that attitude just feels sensible to me. As the song goes be careful of whose advice you buy.

JB

I guess I only want advice and feedback from people directly involved in the journey and the publication of my stories.

Which, as I said, is all that counts, really. Any other advice one pays for should only be educational - to help you get further on that main journey. The problem is, because so many people are writing books these days, the gap between new writer and publisher has become much, much wider. Which has allowed people to move into the gap, claiming access abilities. Some agents, for example, now tend to promote themselves as gatekeepers to the industry which in some ways is a step too far. It's led to some agents 'rejecting' their author's work, or getting them to re-write it according to the agent's tastes - when it's obviously the publisher's taste that really counts. Like everything, this is a fine line of course. Some very good agents will help their writers re-shape a book, but only when they are sure it's going to increase its chance of being sold (and agents are not immune to self-deception in this respect).

One thing I bang on about a lot, is writing short fiction. So many new writers are obsessed with writing novels. But not only are novels much more complex to write, the markets for them are virtually saturated and extremely difficult to break into. By contrast, there are loads of markets for short fiction. You don't need an agent - can submit direct to the editor. Also, while magazine editors are obviously going to give precedence to big name writers, they also like to encourage new authors. Okay, you're still going to receive a lot of rejections but at least you aren't spending a year or so on a novel that may never be published. With short stories, you get to show your versatility and book editors definitely notice new authors whose work has been appearing in magazines - will even approach them direct to ask if they're writing a novel.


Terry


<Added>

Sorry, I should have added that competition for places in short story magazines, especially the top ones, is of course fierce. But it's entirely possible to, say, write a short story a week, or around 30/40 a year. Get those sent out, keep them out, and sooner or later you'll make a sale. Then you can build up momentum - your cover letter starts to look more impressive. Also, whenever editors within a genre - e.g. SF/Fantasy - get together, they'll discuss promising writers who've been submitting to them. The writers concerned may not have received much or any feed-back (editors are busy people) but it doesn't mean editors haven't noticed them, and are keeping an eye out for a story from them that breaks in. Okay, you may receive 100-200 rejections before you sell a story but actually that's a situation you have more control of, and more chance of succeeding with, than submitting a novel. It's also a lot of fun, because you're constantly writing new stuff and constantly giving yourself new chances to succeed.

Terry

I don't really see what all the fuss is about. I don't post much but I read the forums a lot and I always find Terry's pieces thought-provoking, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, and the couple of emails I've received from him contained some sensible advice. I would have thought that most people by now would know that Terry offers editorial services (it's been mentioned enough and other people have even recommended him on this forum), and I sure that had he not mentioned it in this post, someone would have popped up to accuse him of not having declared his interests before running down the competition (which I don't think he's doing in any case).

Anyway, that's my 2p worth. Carry on.

Cheers

J

But, given some of you seem most offended by the prospect of a long-term WW member mentioning that they provide writing services, I expect to see you swooping on any other such mentions from other members (which appear regularly here from certain parties, as you well know).

Personally, I've got nothing against anyone advertising their services from the rooftops, belfry, or by running through the streets naked wearing nothing but a sandwich board and a hand-embroidered codpiece. If you will.

What I didn't like at all about the original post was that while it was an obvious plug for a writing critique/review service, it masqueraded as a serious discussion of dubious writing critiqu/review services.

By all means have an ad. By all means post a serious discussion of dubious writing services. But don't sneak the former into the latter. I'm sure it seemed very harmless at the time, but think of the impact on the reader, given the context.

It's transparent, facile, irritating, exasperating, adjective-provoking... Just plain irritating. I think I'd better go away now. And drink.

Thanks Terry, your original post was of interest as I am at the stage of my first novel where I have to decide if I want to spend money on getting a report from an agency, primarily because I don't really have a reading support structure in place around me, which means I don't get any feedback.

That feeling can be very isolating and daunting, therefore any information and opinion on the editorial agency process is of interest, especially when there's £500 at stake, a not insubstantial amount to some people.

I think some writers might not research these things properly and do end up spending a lot of money for nothing - if everyone was so smart and diligent why would we need websites like Editors and Preditors?

I think the growth in the number of editorial agencies ties in with a wider picture where writing is becoming more of an 'industry' now, in the sense that graduate and post-graduate creative writing courses are sprouting up everywhere (including some with specialisms), a growing number of critique and editing services are available, there are support website like this one etc etc.

I think it was fairly obvious - to me at least - that you weren't touting for business (even if you were then it would be a pretty clumsy and unsubtle way of going about it) but rather posting about something that has a lot of impact in your work life and which you have strong opinions about.

As for some of the replies you've received, well you seem to have fallen foul of the WW thought police and made some people cross, but I'm sure everyone will survive



<Added>

I think I start too many sentences with "I think"...

This thread makes me uncomfortable for a variety of reasons. The first one is that, actually, a lot of us on here do use WW not only as a source of crits on our work, valuable insider information about writing and publishing, and friendship and support - as well as entertaining diversion from work! - but actually, if we are honest, for purposes of networking and contact-making, too. I'm one who has been guilty of publicising my books and book events here - so when I first read Terry's post it made me feel, 'Eek, this feels a bit like an advert' but then I thought, actually, we all do it, or at least I know I've done it. maybe we none of us should publicise what we do - but if any of us do, I guess we all can?

My other reason for feeling uncomfortable is that when I first arrived at WW I used to think that all editorial agencies were more or less by definition a rip-off - charging for something that in an ideal world literary agents should do for nothing - or rather, only for the appropriate cut if and when the work is published. That these people lived by exploiting authors' vulnerability and desperation to be published. And I fear I may have said so a couple of times, in no uncertain terms!

Now I've changed my mind - largely by witnessing the valuable service that people like Casey and Sapph have had. And I've come to see that it's very far from being an ideal world, and that free lit agent feedback of the old kind (of which I received plenty from agents who were rejecting my work, as recently as 2005/6) is increasingly difficult to obtain. Agents are increasingly too busy to give the time they would wish to edtorial advice. And while some editorial agencies may well employ inexperienced readers - and it may be very hard for authors to tell who is any good and who isn't, still less who will be on the right wavelength for their book - actually these guys do provide a useful service which often cannot realistically be obtained any other way.

What I think is that there are good 'uns and bad 'uns, just as there are with agents, editors, mentors, CW teachers... And that it's not even that absolute - that someone who is good for one author and helps her enormously may be worse than useless for another.

The third reason from my discomfort is that I hate WW rucks. It's Christmas. Love and peace and goodwill to all WWers, cute children making snowmen, penguins in party hats, etc, etc.

Rosy x

Here, here, Rosy!
Susiex

I have no problem with anyone looking to promote their books/signings etc on WW.

x

Ken,

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond. Yes, I do have strong views on this subject, which I tried to express here, although for at least one person I apparently didn't manage to rise above 'facile'.

At the core of what I'm saying is a feeling of disquiet about taking £5-600 (or more) from someone for a report - even a good one - at what is often an early stage in a book's and a writer's development. Fine, if the author is fully aware of what they want from a report, but this understanably often isn't the case.

I wish you luck with the novel. Could you, too, find someone (on this site for example) who can be reader for your work and vice versa?

Rosy,

Great post! Just the kind of comments I was hoping for. Some won't believe this, but the last thing I wanted with this thread was a ruck.

I'm really not saying editorial agencies are a rip-off. I think one of the reason ssome of them have been increasingly promoting their ability to place books with agents is probably due to escalating competition: if X makes that claim, we'd better do it too.

Yes, it is tough to find someone who really can help, but then we're all in that boat.

Terry

I think what you say is interesting, Terry. I had the same feelings myself until I actually started working as a reader for one of the larger and better-known consultancies. I can honestly say that I enjoy the work, I don't feel underpaid or resentful regardless of what sort of script they send me, and as someone who is qualified as reader, writer AND editor I feel pretty much suited to the job. I have also had many grateful emails from people whose scripts I've written reports on - that makes it all worthwhile.

I know that there are however some pretty appalling consultancies out there too. I did find one online who couldn't even write a decent cover letter!

Anyway - interesting thread!

Hmm. There are a number of things I think are inaccurate about your post, Terry. Your singer-songwriter comparison is a pretty weak one for a start - there's alot more involved than just going to play in a bar and then deciding to give up the day job...

Also your statement that 'essentially, an agent's job is to negotiate the writer's contract' is only telling part of the story - yes, that is an important part of their job, of course, but the that's far from all they do - obtaining a deal, selling and handling foreign rights, providing editorial support etc etc etc are all a major part of most agent's working lives.

I also think it's a bit snidey to say most readers who work for agencies are writers not editors - I am both, for example, as you say you are. I'm sure - well I'm more than sure, I know for a fact - that there are plenty of others like us.

Just to be clear, what do you think the qualifications for an editor employed by an agency, or working independently, should be?