It's so important to stay positive and keep writing. If the quality is there, it will find a way out eventually.

A timely reminder.

As for mentoring, have you thought of asking a well established writer in your field?

I've been looking at Apprenticeships in Fiction, because they match you with someone in your genre. I do feel that one is likely to receive more from a relationship in which the other person really gets to know your work and way of writing over time. Of course, you have to be lucky to receive a good match...
Susiex

This is a great post as I've long had similar opinions.

I went to an agency after I first started writing, maybe 5 years ago, and the report was very very poor. I should have complained, but being novice, I was too afraid to, convinced it was myself not seeing what they were writing. I read it (and destroyed it) after re-reading it about a year ago and I could really see I was right. What they did was very general, taught me nothing I couldn't have been told on here/in a book, didn't point out specifics in my MS, didn't give me any editing tips. A large enough portion of it was about how to present the manuscript - they forwarded me an attachment - and every single point on that attachment, I'd actually done -so they were just churning out points I didn't need either and not giving me what I really needed. I felt like because I was a first time author going to them (with a clearly not up to scratch MS) they took total advantage of me, - sending set docs on how to present your manuscript that they'd sent probably to all the other first timers they spotted coming in? Overall a very sad experience.

Since I went to that agency I told myself never again, and that I'd only ever want to go to an editor for something like that again. Unfortunately haven't had the courage to do that yet...

<Added>

The agency was, and still is very well known...

I must say, I'm rather shocked by this post. Not perhaps for the reasons Terry expects, but because he appears to be placing a long advertisement for his own services, by knocking agencies.

The proper, and moral, service agencies should offer to the majority of manuscripts they receive is along these lines: to have a reader look closely at the first couple of chapters and synopsis and then make a decision about whether or not the book needs a full report. If, as is often the case, they can see there are major things that need doing first - e.g. no plot to speak of at present - they will offer the writer a service that entails a short report based on the reader speed-reading the rest of the ms. The fee for this would normally be about a third of their normal fee for a report. How do I know? Because this is exactly the service I offer writers.

Isn't there some kind of law against advertising on a discussion forum? I work for a critique agency and I'm sure that if I put up a long post saying how dreadul mentors were and then adding in the middle 'But critique agencies like (insert name), on the other hand, offer a much better service!' no-one would would be very impressed. Terry's whole post reminds me of one of those long advertisements you find in newspapers, that are formatted to look like actual articles in order to snare the reader into buying their product.

That's exactly, exactly what I thought, Leila. I'd just come on here to say the same thing, but you beat me to it.

Isn't there some kind of law against advertising on a discussion forum?

That is my understanding too, Leila.

One doesn't need to validate one's self and one's experience to post an opinion, Terry - that is why members have public profiles; the information can remain in there if anyone wishes to check it.
Unfortunately, your habit of doing so, it has the effect of giving the appearence that you are touting for business, even if you do not mean to.


- NaomiM

Well said, Leila.

I didn't think Terry was touting for business because it was so obvious - i just thought he was validating why he was qualified to make his opinions.

Terry?

x

No I didn't see it as touting either - perhaps because I'm just so closed to the idea as a whole.
And I certainly saw it sa no more shameless than the - come to my book signing/reading/launch that members do all the time on here.
HB x

It's interesting, because I thought a lot about whether or not to mention what I do, editorially speaking, in this post. The reasons for doing so were so I could put myself on the line, i.e. if I'm complaining about some practices of some of the agencies I should show that I'm practising what I preach about what I'm contending is a better way - in this case, not charging people for services they don't need, and not advertising a put-before-an-agent service. On the other hand, I knew that it would give those inclined an opportunity to dismiss what I'm saying. Which of course is exactly what's happened.

On balance, I thought the former was the more honest approach. But, in order to try to negate the accusations, I'll say here that at this time, and probably for some time to come, I'm not taking on any new clients. This is mainly because I'm overloaded with writing consignments at the moment. So - if any one reading this 'advertisement' feels compelled to approach me for editorial services - don't. I really can't take on any more work at the moment.

In fact, if anyone is looking for a good manuscript service, feel free to drop me a line and I'll recommend other people I believe do a very good job.

So, to repeat: I'm not taking on any new editorial work at the moment, just working with existing business and fiction clients.

In general, on the subject of advertising my services here: if I really wanted to do that, I wouldn't have done so within such a long post giving many reasons for not using a manuscript service! In the past, I've sometimes mentioned on WW what I do. This was a purely organic process, which developed out of the fact I joined this site as a writer, did a lot of detailed critiques which had people writing to me to ask if I'd do reports for them. So, I'm challenging the implication here that I'm using the site as an advertising dump - something that certainly occurs here from time to time. I've paid a full subscription for many years and posted hundreds of critiques without any expectation of payment or work as result.

But, given some of you seem most offended by the prospect of a long-term WW member mentioning that they provide writing services, I expect to see you swooping on any other such mentions from other members (which appear regularly here from certain parties, as you well know).

Leila, I don't really think you'd want to live in a society which makes laws prohibiting long-term members of a website community from mentioning to other members that they provide a service those members might benefit from. But if you do then, as said, I'll expect to see you policing any other such 'advertisements' that appear here. Obviously, this will include any WW member who advertises the release of their latest book, or gives the time and venue of their book signings.

Naomi, I don't really understand your comment. Are you seriously saying it's your understanding that there are laws against site members mentioning they provide services on a site they're a member of? If so, I think you need to do some legal research. You are after all a site host, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to misinform some members while at the same time accusing other members of being criminals.

Casey, Helen - just read your comments, after I'd written the above. Thanks. Yes, I had no intention of advertising myself with this post and have, I hope, made clear that I'm not looking for work at the moment anyway. Also, I look forward to Leila and Naomi pointing out to anyone on this site plugging their latest book that they are probably breaking the law and should desist immediately.

Terry

And I certainly saw it sa no more shameless than the - come to my book signing/reading/launch that members do all the time on here.

Yeah, but they're not charging for that are they? Or providing a service. They're asking for support.

Yeah, but they're not charging for that are they? Or providing a service. They're asking for support.

Sorry, I'm a bit slow here. Can you explain the difference between mentioning a service you provide that someone can pay for and mentioning your book that someone can pay for?

Terry

I didn't read this as touting anything. There are plenty of posts going the other direction in the lounge etc, saying that people should go to agencies and people's experiences of such, this is just another view. We should be open to all the advice we can get...

Sure.. obviously there's the price! But, when I see a WW member on here telling everyone they're going to be at Boarders in Cambridge or wherever, I see someone who does not want to feel like a dickhead sitting in a bookshop on their own with no moral support. Other writers instinctively feel this insecurity and on the whole we all want each other to know we're there and offer moral support. Obviously, for example, if Leila was in my town with one of her kids books, I would go along. Not because I have kids or am into kids books, but because I want to share in her success and offer comraderie. However and maybe my concept of this is 'slow' when someone comes onto WW, more than once and starts telling us about their service, I immediately think, 'Oh, he/she would like me to pay up to use that service.'

when someone comes onto WW, more than once and starts telling us about their service, I immediately think, 'Oh, he/she would like me to pay up to use that service

Especially when that person is hardly ever on the forums at any other time.

Perhaps I am a little hard, but I think it's very easy, after the event and in the face of 'accusations' to back-track and say, 'Oh, that's not what I mean at all. And here's the proof.' Anyone can do that.

I generally find Terry quite an argumentative and aggressive member of WW - he has a number of times sent me private emails whose only objective seems to be to stir up trouble - so I find it very hard to take anything he says at face value.

... now let's see how long it takes this thread to disappear!!! :O