I'm new to this forum and quite young (25). I don't intend to start off my time here by complaining about the literary world or feeling depressed about my lack of success so far, but I'd like to get some feedback from you all about your experiences of rejection.

I've written a non-fiction book and sent it to two literary agencies. Both have rejected it, saying it is a brilliant idea, but I haven't expressed the idea well in my actual manuscript. I seem to come up with great ideas about books, research all the facts and have an encyclopedic knowledge of subjects that I write about, yet my writing doesn't pull the whole thing off. I'[m a documentary maker for a living and have a good eye for seeing gaps in the market. Another author has now brought out the very book that i pitched to the agent who rejected me but believed it was a good idea and I feel so depressed about it. It's like being the funny guy at school who chats up the gorgeous girl, only to have the good looking jock come in and sleep with her. Am I being dramatic?!

I've written all my life (from when I was five) like all of you probably have. I've never been selected to put my work in the school magazine, or had my journalism pieces chosen. I tried to get into UEA for the creative writing course but got brutally rejected, and this has been a general pattern for me my whole life, despite having a successful career in documentaries.

I find it extremely hard to take the disappointment of "not being good enough" to do the one thing I want to do in life. Writing is a way of connecting to others, and I feel that if it is accepted and praised by the outside world, my "self" and my perceptions become real in the way I need them to be. I feel like I take huge risks whenever I send my work out there, because it's such a part of me. I suppose this is a similar experience to ones that most writers have.

I haven't really asked anyone's advice before, and I just wondered what you think. is it evident that I should give up writing and concentrate on what I'm good at? If I carry on with trying to write, should I start tackling subjects which don't have personal relevance to me so I can't get hurt when I'm rejected? I thought writing was supposed to be a profession for very "intense" people, but my intensity just seems to make agents think I'm a freak.

Hi Candiflare and welcome to WriteWords.

Rejection always, always hurts, however personal or not-personal the project, because there's a bit of your heart stapled to the page of anything you send out. Good agents and editors know that, but, equally, they're in the business, and won't take on a project they can't see working out, or one where they feel that the fact that your heart's stapled to the page means that you won't be able to handle a businesslike approach to the whole business. It's incredibly galling to see someone else succeeding with something similar to yours, but I don't suppose there's a writer on the planet to whom it hasn't happened.

If two out of two agents who've seen the project have both sounded enthusiastic about the idea, but not the writing, then you've got more feedback than many writers get, and something to build on. I think it can be very difficult, when you know your subject incredibly well, to judge what a book about that subject for the non-specialist doesn't and doesn't need. It's actually much harder to write than a book for your fellow-specialists.

If you make documentaries, I'm sure you have a very good sense of structure and pace and ideas, but maybe you're more used to thinking in images than in words. It sounds as if you need to hone your writing skills to the point where they can do your ideas justice. There are lots of courses for non-fiction writing, though you'd want to check they're not too oriented towards journalism. If you've always written, you may find that it doesn't take much to re-orient the way you think and handle words so that you communicate your thoughts better. Two other possibilities are 1) simply read lots of books of the kind that you're trying to write (I don't necessarily mean the same subject, but ones for the same audience) and analyse in detail how they tackle the kinds of issues of structure and writing that arise with your own. And 2) consider getting and editorial service to do you a report on your book, or its successor if you feel this idea is dead in the water now the other writer's one has come out. A good editorial report will teach you a lot about writing in general, as well as discussing that particular book and the possible market for it.

Very good luck anyway, and don't feel that two rejections is the end of the world or even your hopes - many, many published authors have had them by the bucketload, and for many books.

Emma

Hi, Candiflare, and welcome to WriteWords.

If you have any questions, please ask.

Yes, as Emma says, rejection always hurts, and I don't think it ever gets easier. However, what you probably need at this stage is constructive feedback on your writing to find out how you can imporve it. Sites like WriteWords are a good place to start, as are local writers groups and creative writing courses. You've got a whole lifetime of wriitng ahead of you, so don't think you have to cram it all into the next few years. Take time to learn the craft and eventually you're sure to find success.


- NaomiM

Hi Candiflare, and welcome.
A very honest and open thread, which I can empathise with.
Might be worth having a look at Julia McCutchen's website - she's an ex editor who has set up as a writing coach, specialising in non-fiction. She runs masterclasses and courses and will give one-to-one coaching.
Do you write the scripts for your documentaries? I wonder if it might be worth using your present skills to shape your manuscript - what about imagining that the book is a programme and writing it as a script? You know (probably instinctively by now) how to present visual and aural components in a particular way so that they will be accessible and interesting to a viewer. Try applying those same skills to your book.
But I agree that you need feedback rather than rejection. Constructive feedback which will show what you need to work on. You can't do anything with rejection; but with feedback you can move forward.
Susiex

Welcome Candiflare!

I'd be really interested to know what sort of non-fiction you write and also how it fits in, if at all, with your ideas for documentaries. Is there a link?
Personally, if I could make documentaries I'd be thinking more about making films rather than writing non-fiction. There's no money in it, as you probably know already!

Who, as a non-fiction writer, do you read? If you're not reading non-fiction writers it may be that you're not imprinting a writing style. Of course, you may already be reading non-fiction in buckets in loads, so if so, my apologies. It's just that it's a given, really that if you want to write you have to read.


Twenty five, by the way, is very young to think that your writing career will never get off the ground. I'd say, just keep doing it, get the writing skills up - have you thought about a non-fiction writing course? - and keep subbing. Then, in ten to fifteen years if you've had nothing published you might turn your talents to something else.

There are some great tales on this site of overnight success, but I think, if you study people's stories long enough you'll find people have been writing years before they've had something accepted and all of us have suffered - and still do - cruel blows of rejection even when we're relatively successful. You only have to read threads like the rejection thread, or the lifeboar ones to see that. I'm a true believer that any success that comes too easily is not appreciated. You can have the first novel you write accepted then get chucked off your agent's books five books in because you're no longer being read, for example. You just have to develop a thick skin in this trade -I guess it's like acting in that you're only ever as good as your last gig - and don't take the rejections personally.

At the risk of coming across as heartless I think you have to get a bit tougher or, at least, a bit more philosophical.

Your 2 rejections (many of us that are published here got 30+) seem to be fuelling a deep formed negative attitude that you already have about yourself. That's evident by you saying -

'I've never been selected to put my work in the school magazine, or had my journalism pieces chosen. I tried to get into UEA for the creative writing course but got brutally rejected, and this has been a general pattern for me my whole life, despite having a successful career in documentaries'

The truth maybe that you are a superb documentary maker but a writer that needs more help and advice. There's lots out there - from courses to 'Cornerstones'. Non-fiction rejection hurts - particularly if it's your story or the story of someone you love BUT so does fiction rejection. All of us regardless of our genre put ourselves out there and all of us risk being hurt. It's part of the game.

My advice to you would be approach more people with your work. If they all come back saying the same thing consider changing it. Admit that this may be something you need help with. And trust me - 2 rejections is nothing.

Welcome Candiflare,

You've had excellent advice from people who know already. Forgive the positive spin but at 25 you are already making documentaries and have agents referring to your work as brilliant in concept but not in delivery. You're in a very strong position. I'd add the word 'yet' to 'not being good enough' and study, as others have suggested, elements of craft that will bring your prose in line with your ideas.

Hope those outstanding ideas keep coming.

Susannah

Hello Candiflare, so you have had two rejections? And both agents liked the premise? Great! That is a lot more than many received when they started out. You are 25? Your career is over already? I embarked on my writing quest at 43. I took much advice from a top writer, and he also thought my book was good enough for a major company to take on, and told them so. They didn`t but I received positive feedback from one of the editors, so I knew it was good enough. A small company has signed my book up, but only after a long campaign approaching numerous companies, speaking to the bosses and the editors. All what you learn from people like these will be of enormous benefit. You make documentaries? I`m jealous already! Just take writing as a sideline or hobby. Do not let it get you down. One writer warned me that if you get too serious, it could affect your marriage or relationship, and he was right! Now, I am still struggling to get my second book under way, some projects fell by the wayside. One project I had completed 20,000 words, with another 20,000 available to me, but that has gone on the backburner. That is life. You have a long way ahead of you, and your job will put many potential ideas your way, so sit back and relax, and whatever feedback you receive, take it constructively.

Hi,

I was deeply touched by your open and honest post, and you have expressed a fear that a lot of us have sometime in our writing careers - that somehow we are not "good enough" to be a writer. When I was at school, a long time ago, writers were on a pedestal, but times have changed and many people can write well, but some like me, have to learn a craft that doesn't come naturally. Like you I have written stories from 5 and made them up even younger.

I would echo the advice here, to get some critical assistance from an editor, or join a good quality writing class - or indeed post here and get informal advice.

Having the ideas and plans are the important bits - the craft can be learnt from reading and study, and help from good teachers.

I especially related to your self and perceptions becoming real in the way you need them to be - believe me, you can write at a deep level even in a post on ww, so you should definitely be writing. You are saying things which I am nodding along with going "Ahhh yes, that's it."

All the very best.

HI Candi and welcome. Sounds like you're having quite a difficult time! There are a few things that I wanted to pick up on from your post.

I've written a non-fiction book and sent it to two literary agencies. Both have rejected it, saying it is a brilliant idea, but I haven't expressed the idea well in my actual manuscript.

Most non-fiction books are sold on a proposal + chapters, not a whole book that's already been written. I'm a bit surprised no ones said this to you already. Part of the reason non-f books tend to be sold like this is because any problems in terms of clarifying and streamlining the idea can be done, with an editor, at proposal stage, rather than further down the line when it's much harder to iron out any kinks in logic etc.

I seem to come up with great ideas about books, research all the facts and have an encyclopedic knowledge of subjects that I write about, yet my writing doesn't pull the whole thing off. I'[m a documentary maker for a living and have a good eye for seeing gaps in the market. Another author has now brought out the very book that i pitched to the agent who rejected me but believed it was a good idea and I feel so depressed about it. It's like being the funny guy at school who chats up the gorgeous girl, only to have the good looking jock come in and sleep with her. Am I being dramatic?!

Is it that your writing doesn't pull it off? It seems to me possibly more likely that you;re not quite approaching things in the right way - and that's not a criticism, because it's not always at all easy to know what the right way is...

I thought writing was supposed to be a profession for very "intense" people, but my intensity just seems to make agents think I'm a freak.

Why do you think you need to be intense to be a writer? In my experience, writers are a strange mixture of all sorts - there's no one 'type' of person particularly, intense or otherwise, that makes a writer.

The long and short of it is that rejection sucks. And that sometimes it just takes time to find out what you should be writing, and how. The fact that you haven't had success up until this point doesn't necessarily mean you should stop writing, or that you're no good. It may mean you've been going at it in the wrong way, or from the wrong angle, or similar...

I'm 29, over the last year I've sent off a childrens novel to ten publishers, all of whom have rejected it without giving me any detailed reason. I don't take this personally, because I know most agents only take on a couple of writers a year, and that's usually out of thousands of submissions. Ultimately you just keep at it, and the more you write the better at writing you get.
As for whether or not you're meant to be a writer, writing is too creative a form to use success as a yardstick. Just write. And enjoy it when you can.

I'm incredibly touched and heartened by every single one of your comments! I didn't expect this kind of response! I've also learnt a lot and had excellent advice. I'm so glad I signed up here!

I think one of the things that I maybe wasn't clear about was my submission to the two literary agents. Through documentary areas I had a contact in publishing who directed me to these two agents, and I had an email dialogue with both about the concept of the book, the structure and the areas it would cover. They both got really excited about it and led me to believe that I was really on to something. When it finally came round to me actually sending the manuscript, I got replies saying things like "No, I wouldn't have approached it like this at all. Sorry, but this really isn't me." I know many people have had countless rejections, and I expect multitude of them myself in the future - it's just that this relationship with the two agents was ever-so-slightly cultivated, and they both managed to drop me in a few sentences, which made me think "Goodness - my actual writing must be pretty bad to completely deflate what they consider a brilliant idea.."

Nevertheless I will take all your advice keep striving away. I am so pleased these boards exist.

Candiflare - I agree with what Issy said. You express yourself very well. You are able to capture how a lot of people feel in a few paragraphs. Maybe you shouldn't be worrying so much.

I don't believe in "meant" anyway. And good enough? Well, to be honest, there are plenty of terrible writers published too. No hard and fast rules to any of this stuff.

But, like Jess, I was wondering about whether you are focusing on the wrong things.

"No, I wouldn't have approached it like this at all."

That feedback doesn't sound like anything about writing-style as such. If you say they loved the idea...then to me that sentence sounds like they don't think you tackled the idea in the right way. Which isn't necessarily anything to do with writing. But could be to do with structure or angle or how you create the narrative, or whether you went for a personal angle to tie it together versus whether you outlined 40 short impersonal chapters on a range of issues...etc etc etc. It could be that the documentary making and the structures and conventions you are used to in that are not translating well to non-fiction writing and that you need to take a closer look at the structures and conventions of non-fiction books that the agents represent.

I don't know much about this area, but it sounds very interesting and I don't think it means anything at all that you have had two rejections. But the fact that they question your approach might mean there's something that could be looked at and solved...

It just sounds odd to me, I'd expect them to be working with you on a proposal not a while manuscript if you're talking about non-fiction. I'd be interested to know more about what the projects/who the agents were and might be able to advise further with some more detail - but quite understand if you don't want to say as well - PM me if you like.

Hey there - coming late to this, but just wanted to reiterate what the others have said. Jess is right that it's more often the way for a writer to submit a proposal and sample chapters, so that editors have the opportunity to shape the book as its develops (in this sense, it's actually a much more attractive proposition than submitting fiction, where editorial input often only comes into it once the editor decides she loves the finished product!)

I do feel your pain, but at just 26 myself I think it's hugely important to remember that you've got to pay your dues as an apprentice before you can start to expect success (see the 10,000 hours thread in the Private Members forum...). I keep a list of "late-start" authors for whenever I start to feel that I'm "falling behind" (fyi, they include Rose Tremain, Doris Lessing and Dodie Smith. Patricia Highsmith published for the first time at a relatively youthful 29, but she never got a piece into the New Yorker, which haunted her even by the time she'd become an international bestseller!)

It does sound as if you've got loads of relevant experience already, which is fab - most people my age I know who are working in documentary film making are slumming it as lowly runners or researchers, so if you've got as far as pitching winning ideas you can at least take comfort in the fact that you're making it in a very tough industry!

Finally, at the risk of sounding brutal: 2 rejections is *nothing*. Every one hurts, of course, but you've not yet killed your idea. Now is the time to go back to the drawing board and learn what needs to be done to fix it. And WW is a good place to start