Does pulling your pants down and sitting on a photocopier count as self publishing, I wonder?

I think anything that helps the aspiring (and of course, talented) writer climb onto the bookshelves is a good thing.

JB

Interesting thoughts, Terry. But what is the purpose of a publisher? And what are the aspirations of someone who does self-publish?

I love the idea that self-publishing might be less spat upon, - didn't William Morris and his crew know about this issue?
Becca.

I found myself broiled up by this, and have to confess to loathing the way writers have to struggle. That's why I always think that small local publishers should recognise themselves as us, and us recognise ourselves as them. And we should support each other. Trying to get published, getting encouraging remarks from agents and publishers about our work, and then being 'not quite right' is really disheartening. Some revolution is needed, so it will be interesting, and thanks Anna for spotting it, if suddenly publishers, oh... think they are actually missing out. I wonder if this is a kind of watershed, and publishers are just getting so bored with the stuff they churn out.
Becca.

Len wrote:

...what has held back most writers from using a Vanity Publisher? Is it costs?

Len, if vanity/subsidy publishers did what they promised to do - ie publish books to a decent standard and market them there would be no problem. The trouble is that many of them are in it only for the money they get from the author for the 'services' they offer - marketing and selling books is anathema to them - too much like hard work. Some even forbid their authors to promote the work, because it's too much trouble to order the POD books from the printer and send them out. There may be good/fair ones out there who treat their authors with consideration, but there are sharks and con-men too.

Nell.

There's an excellent article by Simon Trewin in The Author at the moment, all about how editors are becoming increasingly marginalised at publishing houses, and how they should be given more of the freedom they used to have – to spot and nurture new talent. Instead, as he says, everything's geared to selling in big numbers. This produces ironic situations where, for instance, the sales department of a publisher won't put much into a book with a small advance because they take it that that means it isn't very good. So publishers give large advances to books that would be better off growing slowly, in order to convince their own sales staff that they should make the effort – a vicious circle that is obviously going to most vicious on the new author who's trying to develop. But new authors are now expected to bring big returns after two books, or they're out, when, as Simon points out, many great authors of the past didn't write their best stuff until the third or later novel. We all know the result of this: mediocre books hyped to the heavens with nice flashy covers to compensate for the lack of depth within.

Book packagers are increasingly playing a large part in the publishing process. I believe one of the reasons for this is that editors at publishing houses can't quite bring themselves to treat their authors as casually as packagers do. To a packager an author is just one link in a chain to produce a sure-fire series of bland formula fodder. How does it work? Well, the packager will ask several authors to produce a few chapters and a synopsis for an idea the packager has for a series (and no, they aren't interested in the author's ideas – authors tend to be idiosyncratic and unpredictable with their ideas). They will then choose two or three to re-write their pieces, then pick the one they like the best. It perhaps goes without saying that no author gets paid at this stage. The packager then submits the package to a publisher. One editor told me recently that her publishing house takes about one in three of these submissions. In other words, an author stands about a one in twenty chance of his/her work being accepted. Of course, if you're successful, it can be financially rewarding, although you can forget any artistic expression: these series books are written to strict guidelines. You may wonder why an author is needed at all, and I guess the answer is that even in the most formulaic of books, the reader needs at least a spark of creativity to keep them reading. And that's probably the biggest irony of all. Having said all this, I wouldn't rule out working for a packager – at least you know where you are with them, and providing you are clear in yourself that this is purely towards your pension, so be it. And the only packager I've had any dealings with has been pretty straight and uncomplicated about what they do.

Terry

Becca wrote:

And what are the aspirations of someone who does self-publish?

Becca, I can only speak for myself, and my aspirations are:

1. To produce a book that looks and feels good, as well as being a page-turny and enjoyable read.

2. To get my work out there where it has a chance of being seen and read, not only by as many readers as possible but by somebody in publishing who might see its potential and want to publish a second edition.

3. The sheer satisfaction and sense of achievement of doing it all myself.

One bonus of self-publishing is the freedom of being answerable to no one. There are drawbacks, but isn't that true of everything in this life? Who dares wins. (Hopefully, fingers crossed.)

Nell - I entirely agree with you. Self-publishing "The Hit List" has been fun and I feel very much in control of what I want to write and how I want it to look. It's a brilliant outlet for those of us who write well (and there are many of us on this site alone) but who are not commercial.

As you know, if my 2nd novel, "A Dangerous Man", doesn't get picked up by Saqi (I'm still waiting, but the world of publishing is a very slow one!...), then I intend to publish it myself next year.

As a result, I'm both 100% in support of commercial publishing and 100% in support of self-publishing - the literary world and the reading world most definitely need both.

LoL

A
xxx

Nell,

Of course Vanity Publishers prefer not to grasp the real nettle of book publishing. Anyone can have a manuscript produced in book form. The many other aspects following the physical appearance of the book are the stages that require the maximum investment... promotion, advertising, selling, distribution, storage etc.

Their services will therefore be geared to providing the Writer with 'every help' to publish which in most cases means possible editorial help, cover design, limited print production, binding etc. All of these mean income for them.


Yes, there have always been con-men in this business and, if one uses a Vanity Publisher then it is a wise step to find out exactly what they will provide and how much.

When I posed the question of what holds most Writers back and suggested it may be costs, this was in the light of having looked at the charges of the service mentioned by Terry and realizing that for 100 copies the unit cost would be $8/9 minimum. With most of the VP's it is not possible to have this information so early and certainly not have copies so quickly!

What Terry showed was a new printing service, indicating that new equipment is finding its way onto the market. This may well mean that unit prices to the writer for a very limited number of copies may well come down in price.
Interesting to pose the question of how far the unit price must drop before most writers
utilise such a service. This will also crystalise one's thinking to reveal those writers who would never use this type of service... if so, what would be their reasons?

Len

Time could be one reason Len. Not having enough of it to deal with all that would be involved in self publishing. (The full time job syndrome).
Becca.

Good Point, Becca.

However, if a Writer 'sees' this as a definite pathway to a positive end then I am sure that time would be found by even the most busy of Writers to have in their hands a number of copies of their book.

If you mean that many/most writers would not have the time to undertake the subsequent marketing to get their book alongside the mainstream published work, then I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Nevertheless HOW you market your printed book does not have to be through the time-consuming and expensive stages associated with mainstream publishing... this is the challenge.

Len

Big and interesting challenge Len. Has it been done, do you know?
I know other people must have asked you this Nell, but how much time was involved in producing 'The Golden Web'? It entirely makes sense that you are involved in self publishing because you're a painter as well and I imagine care a lot about the physical object that a book is, texture, quality, feel of the pages, cover etc.
Becca.

Len, the POD service Terry wrote of is not normally called 'Vanity Publishing'. This term usually implies the involvement of a supposedly bona-fide/established publisher, so it seems we were talking at cross-purposes. The service Terry mentioned would, I guess, be called self-publishing.

Reading the information on the website I'd say that this particular service is in its infancy and not yet suitable for serious authors, due mostly to the costs involved. It's worth remembering also that the quality of a POD book varies from a standard trade paperback, making it instantly recognisable. The main difference is the paper - POD machines use a thinner whiter paper than the lovely bookwove used in litho printing.

Re. the term 'Vanity Publishing', coined I believe by Jonathan Clifford, who has done so much to expose the crooks and charlatans who masquerade as genuine publishers, I believe this has done authors a disservice. Self-publishing has somehow become tainted with shame too. No one looks askance at musicians who pay for a demo-tape and distribute and promote it to get their work some attention - why should publishing your own book be regarded in a different light? In the present climate when publishing is accountancy-run there's no shame in having enough faith in one's own work to stand up and be counted as a self-publisher.

Anne, you go girl!

Nell.

Becca,

We were posting at the same time, and I've only just seen your question. Producing and publishing The Golden Web has been an extraordinarily time-consuming yet incredibly satisfying project. Editing and formatting for printing, designing the cover, the sell-sheets and press releases, ordering envelopes etc. sending info. out, adding links to all the relevant websites, dealing with enquiries and dispatching books leaves me less time for writing, yet all those things are energising, and tend to spur me on to greater effort. The painting has been suffering too, but you're right about the appearance of the book (as well as the contents) being very important to me. At the end of the day (cliche alert) one has to stand by one's work and say 'Yes, this is my baby'. One must have faith in the product. Antony Rowe (the printers) did a wonderful job and the book has been much admired, I can't recommend them highly enough.

Nell.

Someone suggested I take a look at this site:

http://www.writerscollective.org/index.html

which I've done very briefly. It looks interesting - if genuine (and at first glance it appears to be), then this could be the first of a new kind of writers' collective. We all know the internet has tremendous potential, but also that it's undisciplined and dispersed ... maybe this kind of approach is the way forward. I'd be very interested to know what Nell thinks, if she's got time to check it out.

Terry

This is a wonderful step forward for self publishers like myself. I have published three poetry booklets (with a fourth on the way) and sold them with a precentage going to Great Ormond Street Hospital. Although I have only dabbled 'small-time', I have been pleasantly surprised by the response. Next year I shall attempt a larger project.

It is good to see self publishers finally being taken seriously. It is not always a case of writers being desperate to see their work in print. It is a matter of self-belief and faith in your ability!

Oh yes - and don't forget Hugh Montgomery's "Voyage of the Arctic Tern" which also began as a self published book.

Thank you for brightning my day.
All the best,
Beanie Baby