The point is, Dwriter, the POD-publishing industry is geared up for internet sales and marketing, and from my experience (and, with just 17 sales, also yours) it doesn't work, not least when new self-published authors go into it expecting sales to be at least in the hundreds, and preferably in the thousands to match the traditional publishing route.
I read somewhere that 99% of those publishing via Lulu had sold less than 2 copies.



- NaomiM

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My argument with self-publishing is not that there is anything wrong with it - it has a perfectly valid role to play - but that users' perceptions are wrong.

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Guess it depends on the book, really.

- you see, that is another misconception, the argument that books don't sell online simply because they are badly written. There are, at the last count, what? 2 million books listed on Amazon? How is any newly listed pod novel going to compete in such a market?


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And I'm talking novels here, rather than specialist non-fiction, which is the true niche market of POD publishing.

I agree, the difficulty with self-publishing isn't the supply chain, it's getting people to want the thing in the first place. Publishers wouldn't spend as much time and trouble as they do on marketing and PR if they didn't think it necessary.

Which is why self-publishing works if you've got a well-defined, easily accessible non-fiction market - local or special interest, or family for that memoir - but is extraordinarily difficult to do successfully for fiction and creative non-fiction.

Emma

I got your point, Naomi. Sorry if I sounded like I was getting at you, I wasn't. I totally see your point and agree with it. Myself, I have never used lulu expecting to sell in the hundreds, but I kinda used it as a last resort as I really wanted to be published.

I remember one person on a forum (not this one) saying something along the lines of why should people buy self-published novels when they are plenty of published writers getting books out. I saw his point. The problem is that he was talking about it like it was easy to get a publisher. I really wish it was that simple.

Maybe I just gave up too soon along the traditional route.

I got your point, Naomi. Sorry if I sounded like I was getting at you, I wasn't. I totally see your point and agree with it. Myself, I have never used lulu expecting to sell in the hundreds, but I kinda used it as a last resort as I really wanted to be published.

This is the key for me, the bit in bold. I just don't think self-publishing fulfills that desire, for most people. Like Naomi's said - it's just your same ms, as it is in your computer, but in a different format. Self-publishing is a misnomer for me, because it implies that it's somehow another route to the end result that you get with conventional publishing - being stocked in Waterstone's, for example - but that you do it yourself. When, in 99.9% of cases, that simply isn't the case.

I'm not saying self-publishing/subsidy publishing has no place, but you need to be very clear on what you want to get out of it.

Bubblecow has given some very good advice but I would add a word of caution re online presence etc- yes, it can be great, and a good way of communicating, building a network and all of that stuff. But how much of it actually translates to sales? Yes, it's important to have some kind of online presence, and to maintain that, definitely, but I think alot of faffing around of facebook etc can be a) pointless b) an excellent way of wasting time (which as I'm sure you know, writers don't tend to need any help with ... ) and c) actively have a diluting effect re creative energies which would be best spent working on one's writing.

That's a good point you made on the last point there. Doing the work yourself does tend to take away time you could be spent writing and adding creative input to the story. Speaking for myself, I often have about a million different stories on the go (of course I'm speaking in hyperbole), so it is nice to actually come away from the writing now and then.

I still think the online approach isn't bad to get a fan base (if not a small one) but as a lot of people have pointed out, that's not the only way to go about publishing a book. If you self publish, you can find as many ways as you can go about promoting it. But don't expect major sales. Even G.P Taylor didn't sell at first, of course, then his sales got bigger and he got a publishing deal from it.

There doesn't seem to be any right or wrong way to publish, really. It all comes down to whether you think your book is good enough to sell and how much work you can put into it.

Failing that, you could always track down a publisher and put a gun to their head and threaten to pull the trigger if they don't publish your book (though I don't recommend that, lol) or lay in wait for a publisher to accept you.

I remember reading one story about a guy who wrote a book, but he didn't get any sales from it. So, he published it in the form of a flash cartoon (in many chapters). Through these flash cartoons, he built up a huge fanbase and then his book had publisher interest. Could that be one way to go?

One thing I forgot to add about the 17 sales of my book on Amazon, I supposed I should have really mentioned that the book I wrote is specifically an adult book (with tons of swearing and other mature stuff) that automatically limited the amount of people I could sell it to really. Or doesn't that make any difference? Still new to all this publishing lark.

There doesn't seem to be any right or wrong way to publish, really. It all comes down to whether you think your book is good enough to sell and how much work you can put into it.

Hmm, sort of. You can think your book is good enough, and be wrong... plenty of people are. And you can put lots of work in and not sell any/many copies - work isn't always enough.

That's true Jess. But I have to be a little cynical about whether a book being good enough is a deciding factor to be published. If that was the case then we wouldn't have any bad novels out there (and there are some. Dan Brown for instance-at least in my opinion).

Of course, by this I am not suggesting that because you get published, you can't write. That's not the case at all and there are some fantastic writers out there. Publishers obviously take risks with new authors and books and they have to make sure they can get a return from it. At least that's my understanding.

That's probably why we have so many celebrity writers out there putting books out. The pubishers know they are gonna sell no matter how bad the book is (and most of them are pretty bad in my eyes).

Oh, what is a new writer to do?

It's irrelevant to talk about 'bad' novels, because the publishing industry does not view a novel which sells in the millions as 'bad'. As writers, we're trying to get the publishing industry to accept our novels, so in moaning about 'bad' books getting published, all we're doing is clogging the flow between us and a possible readership.

What is a new writer to do? I'd say two things: 1) write with passion and great technique, telling stories that excite you, and 2) learn everything you can about how the publishing industry works so you can sell them your stories through methods they can understand - which generally means, convincing them that your book will sell. Do these two points contradict each other? Only if you can't get past the notion that being a regularly published author means becoming professional in your approach to the industry, while letting your creativity guide your actual writing.

Oh, and a couple more, obvious, things:

3) Write lots.
4) Get it out there and keep it out there until it sells.

Terry

Hey Terry. Yes, that is a good point. When I was talking about "bad" novels, I was being a little tongue and cheek, I wasn't moaning about any "bad" novels. It was just an excuse for me to have a dig at Dan Brown. lol Sorry to any Dan Brown fans out there, but I just don't like him. But that's totally subjective.

Here's a thought, does it help you get a publishing deal if you've had writing experiance (such as writing for a magazine, online blog, winnning competitions etc) I can't help but feel that might work against me getting a publishing deal. Or doesn't that make any difference?

I completely agree with Terry, but would add that the trend for celebrity writers is nothing to do with the quality of their writing (and it's notable how many celebrity novels were penned by ghostwriters), but with the fact that a celebrity is a known 'product' that publishers can be sure will generate interest from a segment of the public. For example, whether you love or loathe Katie Price (aka Jordan), there are a lot of people out there who will buy a book simply because her name is on it, and this is demonstratable through her sales figures.

I'd suggest that in some ways it's possible for a successful celebrity writer published by a commercial publishing house can be a good thing for brand new unknown authors because that celebrity will generate more revenue for that house, which will therefore give it more that it can invest in other areas.

Dwriter: does it help you get a publishing deal if you've had writing experiance (such as writing for a magazine, online blog, winnning competitions etc) I can't help but feel that might work against me getting a publishing deal. Or doesn't that make any difference?

Reputable writing credits are worth mentioning in a query letter or covering letter to an agent or publisher because it proves that you are able to write to a professional standard. For example, if you've had short stories published in professional or semi-professional magazines (whether on line or physical) or well regarded token or non paying magazines, then it shows you can meet an editorial standard. Similarly, if you win a well-known competition (like Bridgport or the Fish competitions) that agents/publishers are likely to recognise then it's worth a mention or if you've studied creative writing at a known university. However, if your experience is limited to self-publishing or letters to the editor of your local paper, I don't think it's worth a mention.

At the end of the day though, all evidence of writing credits may do is get an agent/editor to take a look at your manuscript. If your manuscript is no good for them (whether because the writing isn't great or the idea doesn't appeal to them or they've just bought/agreed to represent a book like it) then you could have a list of credits for The New Yorker, but they're still likely to turn you away.

Best advice is to focus on your manuscript and get it as polished as you can get it and while its out on submission, work on your next one.

G

Part of your cover letter should tell the editor/agent how brilliant you are. But you have to use common/professional sense in what you quote to that end. The bottom line, pretty much, is whether or not you got paid. A magazine who paid for your work is good, especially if you regularly had to meet deadlines. But there's no point in mentioning a blog, unless you can demonstrate it has thousands of regular readers who have paid you for your writing. So, yes, it can work against you if quote blogs and non-paying gigs, because that's the hallmark of an amateur. If you don't have credits rely instead on writing a killer cover letter, exciting proposal and page-turning first three chapters.

Terry

I think Terry Edge made a very good point about the industry’s role in all this. I have a book sitting on my computer. It’s about the Battle of Hasting and asks the reader to read along and choose the way the battle will develop (like the old Fighting Fantasy). I pitched the book to three very big publishing houses - one that specialises in kid’s stuff, one mainstream and one specialising in history. The result has the same for each - loved the book but the market is too small (for them).

This leaves me with two options. The first is a small press. The second is a self publish. I am seriously considering the second route. However, if I do go down this track I would do it as a self publisher. In that I would see myself as a publisher rather than a writer. I would pay for the book to be professionally edited, the cover designed and carefully choose my printer. But to be honest the only reasons I would do any of this is firstly to sell a decent number of books (500+) and secondly to prove build a platform on which I could present he next book in the series to a bigger publisher.

Gary