I couldn’t agree more. In my experience writers need to treat building their online presence as a job.

The blog is only the tip of the iceberg they need to spend time every day visiting other blogs, leaving comments, contributing on forums, play Facebook and all the other online activities they can think of doing. It’s all about presence. The more a writer is involved the more people will show interest in them and hopefully their work.

It’s a long hard slog but can be done.

Interesting thread, but nothing more to add.

BubbleCow, I see you've teamed up with Bluechrome, which should be a terrific combination.

Emma

oops, just added something to my last post and crossed with you Bubblecow.

I see you are advertising your services with evey post you leave on WW. Personally I would advise taking it a little more slowly - months rather than hours - before trying to build up a client base within writers sites like this. We - along with most writers forums - have our own experts who have been on the forums in most cases for several years and whom members are familiar with and who come with personal recommendations from fellow site members. Which is why I recommend you let people get to know you first, before overtly displaying your wares.


- NaomiM

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oh, crossed with Emma.

It's interesting you mentioned facebook and bebo and that stuff there. I used Facebook to promote my first novel which I self published. I got about 18 sales from it (of course, over a period of a few months), and only a few of those were friends and family. Now the book is selling on Amazon and I've had a about six reviews from it. So prehaps theres actually more help fort writers out there to do most of the work themselves in this day and age.

Of course, admittedly, you have to do all the work yourself, but thinking about it, surely the rewards would be great if you can sell plenty of them?

Emma,

Thanks for the advice regarding my company’s services. I am sorry if you feel I have come in too strong. My intention was to offer advice, not build a client base. I too am a writer and have been for a number of years. I have worked with and for a number of publishers, both big and small. In the past I have come to boards similar to this to seek advice and now I am I a position to help out I couldn’t resist the opportunity to pass on my (limited) wisdom.

I understand that a number of members for this forum will have already used similar services, whilst others already act as editors and mentors themselves. I would not dream of overstepping the mark but I feel I have a unique perspective. I joined the forum this weekend and whilst reading through the posts saw a few threads that I thought I could contribute. However, I take on board your advice and will take it a bit more slowly.

Thanks

Gary at BubbleCow

Gary, I have to say it wasn't me, it was Naomi who commented on your posts, though she makes an excellent point.

Don't know if everyone already knows about this, but Gardners are the distributors through whom Waterstones get hold of self-published books. This is the Gardners page about how to get your self-published book registered with them, so that if Waterstones will know about it. (Won't necessarily order it, of course, but you do want the largest book chain in the UK to know about it, don't you?)

http://www.gardners.com/gardners/include.aspx?I=/gardners/content/Publishers/A_guide_for_publishers/I_would_like_to_supply_Waterstones.htm

and thanks to How Publishing Really Works for the link.

Emma

Wow! That's actually really handy! I've been thinking of taking my book to Waterstones to see if they will sell it. I'll check it out. Thanks for putting the link up Emma.

I am not sure that Gardners will take direct from authors. Though I must admit I have very little direct experience of this side of things. I do know that Borders have a section in their store for self-published books, though they are limited to a few titles. I wonder if they use the same distributor? I think I need to do a bit of delving.

I am not sure that Gardners will take direct from authors.

If you look at that link, you'll see how it's organised. If they get enough demand from booksellers, Gardners will stock your self-published book, otherwise they're the portal, as it were, between the shop and the self-publisher.

Emma

Emma,

Yeah I had seen that and it must be a step in the correct direction. However, it leaves the author in a bit of a sticky situation. In this system they are acting as their own publisher, using Gardners as distribution chain. They need to generate enough interest in their book to get bookshops on their side and in turn Gardners. However, without books in shops it’s difficult for casual readers to find the book and generate the interest. This can be done on a local level but shops such as Borders can often be convinced by local authors to stock their books.

I suppose that is adds another link in the self publishing chain and it will allow an author to write and publish a book, and then acting as their own publishing house, distribute into bookshops. Yet without any expertise in marketing to me it seems unlikely that the average writer would be able to generate the kind of real world interest in a book they would need.

Of course this all comes down to the internet. This seems the perfect tool for generating interest, though I don’t see why a potential internet based reader would not use Amazon or book depository (free delivery).

I suppose that self publishers must look at three routes to sale:

1. Bookshops (if they can generate the interest and act like publishers)
2. Online sale from Amazon etc.
3. Ebook downloads from their site.

Is this fair? I am missing something?

Well, that's the thing, isn't it: self-publishers have to use all avenues. I think the difficulty of marketing fiction - where there's no obvious community of interest you can tap into, either local or subject-specific - is the thing which many potential self-publishers don't really grasp. Yes, you can do your best online, and it's a much better best than in pre-internet days, but actually it's only a different version of the same problem: getting people to know about and find your work in the first place. It's no coincidence that the most successful start-up publishers, like Snowbooks, are the ones who, despite the frustrations and expense, concentrate their efforts on getting their books into the shops. It doesn't take much difficulty or an unusual route to put off a potential buyer. There's nothing to stop the s-p author going in to chat up their local Waterstones, after all: the managers have more buying freedom these days, by all accounts, but at least now the books can be supplied by channel they're used to, which used to be a stumbling block.

though I don’t see why a potential internet based reader would not use Amazon or book depository (free delivery).

But for myself, I rarely use either: ordering books through one of my local indie bookshops is equally free and a darned sight quicker (order by 4pm, it's in by noon the next day, usually I'm not committed to buying it if it turns out not to be what I want without fannying around with returning parcels, and I don't have them nicked off the doorstep when the bloody postman can't be arsed to ring the doorbell.) My indies use Gardners among others, so they'd be able to get hold of any hypothetical self-published book that's available by that route, and indies are usually very supportive of local authors. Book Depository are particularly annoying, in that they don't back-order books: my forthcoming novel, for instance, is just listed as 'not available', though the Amazon link would show it as 'pre-order now', so I do wonder how much use BD are with a book the author is supplying themself.

I'm not saying that everyone should do as I do - I'm particularly lucky in my bookshops, I know - but that it doesn't do to rely on any one route, nor to assume the internet savviness of the average book-buyer. (WWers, of course, are pre-selected for Net savviness, so not a representative sample.) Not least because the biggest buyers of fiction - middle-aged women - are <sweeping statement alert> probably the least inclined to have the Net as their default.

Emma

:de lurks:

Dwriter: Is it really that bad, putting your own money up to publish a book?

No, but I think you need to think of it this way: there is a possibility that whatever money you spend on being published (whether that's £10, £1000 or £10,000) is money that you might never get back, no matter how hard you work at trying to sell your book.

If you think that you can afford to not see that money again, i.e. you have no pressing need for it, then it's up to you as to what you do. Personally, I'm a believer in Yog's Law (i.e. money should always flow to the author), but if you want to go down the self publishing or subsidy publishing route, I think you need to consider the following:

1. Is the publisher going to be able to place my books in book stores or is this something that I am going to have to do? Note that there is a difference between putting books in stores and making books available to order from stores. With the latter, you are still going to be doing an awful lot of work to get the word out there for people to buy your book.

2. Is the publisher going to price my book competitively? If your publisher sets a price of £15 for an ordinary trade paperback of 300 pages, then you're going to find it very difficult to persuade people to buy it - especially if they can get a fantasy novel of equivalent length for £7.99 from their local book store.

3. What royalties will my publisher pay me for my book? In addition to the level of royalties (which should ideally be 15% upwards), the way in which those royalties are calculated are important. Are royalties calculated on the cover price of the book (which is preferable) or a net price of the book (which will result in you getting less money). If it's on net, how is the net price calculated? If the publisher is taking off money for all of their shipping and distribution costs or for other expenses, I'd reconsider going with that company.

Dwriter: Are they and GOOD vanity press out there?

If you do want to go down subsidy/vanity publisher route, then definitely check out Preditors and Editors and also this link to the Bewares and Background Forum on Absolute Write:

The thing you need to bear in mind with vanity publishers, self-publishers and subsidy publishers is that they're not interested in the quality of your manuscript. They don't believe in it and they're not invested in it. The amount that you pay them for publication of your book is automatically money in the bank for them because they are making their money from you.

I know that all of this seems negative, and I'd stress that I do think that self-publishing is fine for people who have specialised books that will appeal to a limited market, or who are going into it well aware of the likely problems that they will have in making money from their book but who have prepared accordingly. However, if you haven't exhausted an agent/commercial publisher search, it might be better for you to finish going through that process before thinking about alternative routes.

Dwriter: I did actually once try to get in touch with GP Taylor. He gave me some really good advice about how to self-publish. Nice guy as well. The crux of it does come down to how much hard work you put into it, but if you succeed, the rewards are great.

I know that G P Taylor is one of the self-publishing success stories (and I am in no way denigrating his achievement), but it's worth bearing in mind that his books reached the bestseller lists after he was picked up by Faber and Faber.

Hey Giltspur, that's some damn good advice you've given me here. The more I read this thread, the more I begin to think self-publishing might be the way to go. TO be honest, I've kinda given up hope on the whole Agent/Publisher thing and figured it might be good to get it out there on my own back. I was just seeking advice on the whole subsidy thing.

But everyone has some excellent advice here. Thanks to everyone who put their opinons in. I think Lulu might be the way to go.

I suppose that self publishers must look at three routes to sale: 1. Bookshops (if they can generate the interest and act like publishers) 2. Online sale from Amazon etc. 3. Ebook downloads from their site. Is this fair? I am missing something?

I've found face-to-face sales to be the most effective in terms of profit and volume of sales, and those have largely been through Art and Craft Fairs and local schools (esp. for illustrated childrens fiction).
Bookshops will not stock more than a copy or two at a time, and ask for a minimum 30% discount (normally 40%) on the cover price, which is not cost effective for me when one includes postage &/or petrol in the equation.
I've sold 2 copies via Amazon and one off my website, so dead loss there.
No idea about ebooks, I don't read them myself. A better route - especially with Childrens fiction - would be a downloadable audio recording of the story.



- NaomiM

<Added>

As for Giltspur's point about competative pricing, a private imprint with a limited print run can be half the price of a pod or vanity published book.

<Added>

If you buck the traditional publishing route, then you must also find new and novel sales and marketing routes, since the traditional ones are intricately linked to traditional publishing.

I've sold 2 copies via Amazon and one off my website, so dead loss there.

I wouldn't say Amazon is a dead loss for book sales (unless you were talking about your own experiance there, if you were I misread it so I apologise). I've sold a good seventeen or so books through Amazon (and got six reviews out of it), but that could be mainly down to me advertising it on my facebook page. I think the internet is a good tool, but like anything, you have to be extremely good at marketing to get anywhere. Guess it depends on the book, really.