Hello

I’ve seen a few posts on this site in which members say that they haven’t got the money to bother with editorial services but I wondered if anybody out there has actually gone ahead and used one.

My situation is that an agent saw my full manuscript and was very enthusiastic about a lot of it but, due to some ‘fundamental problems’ with plot and structure, requested a rewrite. She also said that I might benefit from using an editorial service (I don’t think that there was anything too dodgy about this recommendation because she said that in most cases she wouldn’t recommend them and warned me that they were very expensive if I decided to use one).

I have now finished my rewrite, but wanted to get some feedback from other members before I spent hundreds on something that might not be worthwhile. What did you get back from them? Was it helpful?

Thanks

Livi

P.S. I’m a new site member (and very new to writing).

Hello Livi, and welcome to WW.

That's very good news about the agent, and very impressive indeed, if you've not been writing long. I agree that doesn't sound dodgy at all - I know my agent very, very occasionally recommends using an editorial service in just those terms.

I'm sure others will pile in here, but there are also quite a few past threads discussing questions like yours. If you do a site search on 'editorial services' you should pick them up. I know there are quite a few WWers who've used them, with a wide range of reactions, the majority extremely positive, I think, though some less so.

From the other end of things (I do reports for one of the services, and also independently) I would say that having a good chat with whoever runs the service is always sensible - they all run things slightly differently, and you need to be confident that their system suits you. Plus as an editor I find it's enormously helpful if you're clear in your covering letter about what you want from the report - including what the agent said. That way the service can steer your MS to the right editor, and the editor knows what to concentrate on.

Very good luck with it, whatever you decide to do!

Emma

Welcome.
Two members of my writing group have used one and both received very extensive feedback. I was impressed with the detail.
That said, neither books have yet found a publisher but that could be to do with so many different factors.
I didn't use one - too mean.
HB x

Hi Livi,

I've used one once, and found it very helpful and constructive. I used Literary Intelligence, partly because I know the two people who run it, and knew they'd give constructive advice. What I got for my money was an 11-page document full of overall feedback on story, characters etc., plus very detailed comments and suggestions about individual points in the book as well as responses to my questions. They'd obviously read it carefully and spent time reflecting on what they'd read. The changes they recommended were very sensible and my manuscript is much improved as a result.

One word of advice: think very carefully about what exactly you want them to read it for. Ask specific questions. That way, you'll get a report that's much better tailored to your needs.

Good luck!
AGx

Hi Livi and welcome to WW.

I've used Cornerstones on several occasions and find them to be really good. It's pretty expensive, but worth it if you can find the money.
Good luck with it all,
Caroline

Hi Livi
I used Writers Workshop and received some excellent help. Just what I needed.
Good Luck.

I used one and would never, ever do so again. If you belong to a writers' group you may get a lot of help through them.

I had EmmaD carry one out on my novel (again structure was the main but not only issue) Since then, i have had positive feedback from one agent, who having read the partial wants me to restructure further and send full. And just had another request from an agent, who wants partial (i think this relates to the fact EmmaD also gave me pointers on how to convey its marketability as they haven't read any yet, but i did rewrite the query letter). So from my perspective they work.

However i do think it is vital, you give some pointers for them to focus on.

And no its not cheap - but agents are often reassured that you take your writing seriously if you are prepared to pay for support.

I can personally recommend EmmaD, and also i have heard a lot of good things about Cornerstones, in fact one agent i came across actually advises authors to use this particularly consultancy.

Whatever you choose, you should expect a detailed report that covers the main areas, of plot, structure, characters etc.

good luck.

Hi Livi, and welcome to WW.

If you're new to writing, then it’s very encouraging for you to have such a positive response from an agent. Well done!

I've used Cornerstones, and can recommend them. They are expensive, but will only agree to work with you if they think your writing is at the stage where it would benefit from editorial input. They like to see a sample and the synopsis, then, if they think you're not at that stage yet they’ll tell you – nicely – and they won't charge for that.

Why not upload the first 1000 or so words on here and ask for feedback. You could get a lot of help, depending on what those fundamental problems are. Overall structure is difficult to judge without reading the full ms – and I don’t think anyone on here has the time for that – but for problems like sentence structure, punctuating dialogue, and so on, this is an excellent place to learn.

Best wishes

Dee

Hi,
Welcome to WW.
I used Cornerstone and found them excellent, they also tried to help me get an agent but I ended up going with an agent I’d contacted myself.

My advice to you would be to post as much of your book as you can here, do it over a few months and get loads of feedback because I've found other people’s comments to be invaluable. But the nature of this site means people can't possibly read your entire book and comment on the overall structure, plot... This is where I found Conerstone excellent. They're lovely to deal with and I think worth every penny. For me using them meant not going on holidays (as it is v. expensive) but I’d already given over so much of my life to my book that I thought why not go the whole hog.

I'm about 20,000 words away from finishing my second book and even though I have an agent I'd still think strongly about using Cornerstone again. I learned so much from their report, it was a real eye-opener but most of all it gave me hope and belief that I wasn’t flogging a dead horse.

Though in saying all that I think I was lucky with the editor who read my book and I can only speak about my own personal experience.
Good luck and keep us posted, Trina.


<Added>

PS.
Oups... Should have read Dee's advice before I posted my own... Sorry for the repetition.

Hello Livi, and welcome to WW
I'm just about to send my submission package to the Hilary Johnson Agency, so I can't give any feedback yet. But as someone said to me, you might as well give your book the best possible chance before you send it out. The whole book, at this stage, is too expensive to send, but Hilary is charging £120 for the cover letter, synopsis and up to 15,000 words (she works, I hear, with the more commercial end of the market)and I figure that if I can get my submission package up to scratch, it will be an excellent start. BTW, the Writers Workshop will look - for free - at your covering letter and give feedback by email. They came back to me immediately.
It sounds like you chiefly need plot advice. I believe that some of these services will tailor to your need, so you might be able to negotiate on price for a read-through, bearing only plot in mind?
All the very best with it,
Susiex

Some editorial agencies allow you to contact the person who wrote the report afterwards if you have any questions, but others don't. It's worth asking if that's possible before choosing one.
As a general point for anyoe else reading this, if your ms falls into certain genres it's worth asking the agency if they have someone who specializes in that genre - eg, no point going to an editoral agency that deals with literary fiction if you write childrens fantasy ficton or SF.


- NaomiM

you might be able to negotiate on price for a read-through, bearing only plot in mind?

I have to say that the bulk of the time I spend on a report is reading the novel. A report that was only concentrating on one thing and was therefore shorter wouldn't make much difference to how long the whole thing took, so I wouldn't have thought it would make much difference to the price.

Some editorial agencies allow you to contact the person who wrote the report afterwards if you have any questions, but others don't.

Very true. From a purely selfish point of view I think those conversations are the bit I most enjoy about the whole process.

if your ms falls into certain genres it's worth asking the agency if they have someone who specializes in that genre

And of course if the editors are actually listed on the site, with what they write if they're authors, you can get quite a good idea yourself.

And thank you for those kind words, Juliet.

Emma

Just to add I didn't use Cornerstones so they may be worth a shot

We've discussed this before but I think it's worth putting in a view from an independent (me) who works largely with writers who approach him through word-of-mouth, and with existing clients; who is a one-man outfit and therefore is in many ways less restricted in how he operates. The restrictions of larger agencies are mostly to do with the need to provide a recognisable, fixed-cost, formatted rather than tailored, product, and to control (i.e. mostly to restrict and in some cases prevent altogether) contact between writers and readers (for largely obvious reasons), not to mention the need to generate enough income to meet their overheads. This last point translates in practice to them having to take pretty much any ms that's sent them, rather than choose only those authors they believe they can actually help.

One of the reasons I left the agency I worked for was that I didn't feel right in producing a lengthy report, which cost the author a large sum of money, when his or her work was at a very poor level, either because the writer was just starting out or because it's possible they might never write very well. Either way, it seemed better for both parties if there were decent, reasonable, filter systems in place before a writer committed a large sum of money which may in effect be wasted. Often, for example, I only had to read a few pages to know the writer needed to completely re-work the book. So, to go on after that point and spend hours reading what in effect didn't need reading, and to charge for it, seemed plain wrong to me.

You need to bear in mind, also, that with most agencies the reader only gets a third of the fee paid by the author (even less in one case I know of). So, while your ms may, either by good management or by chance, find the best reader for you at an agency, and one who is enthusiastic despite their low pay, you may just as easily spend a lot of money to have your book reported on by someone who, let's say, is not quite as enthusiastic as their employers would have you believe.

So when I set up on my own, it occurred to me that a two-tiered fee system would be more flexible. For example, the consultancies will charge you between £450 and £650 for a report on a 100K word novel. This allows for the reader to read every word closely. However, the truth is that for most purposes, you don't need to spend so much time on every word. Often, it's perfectly possible to speed-read large amounts of the text. So, what I do is discuss with the author what they want from me and, if it seems workable, I offer to charge at my hourly, not per-word, rate on the basis that I will speed-read x amount of the book. This way, I can spend more time on the report and the author pays considerably less - around half what the consultancies charge. I also take a look at the work before we make an agreement, and if I believe it needs a lot of fundamental re-writing I won't go ahead, unless of course the writer wants me to.

Just to be clear, by the way, I only speed-read by agreement with the author; I'm perfectly happy to read closely if that's what he or she wants.

By the way Naomi, it's a good suggestion - to check with an agency whether or not they cover your particular genre. Unfortunately, agencies are not likely to turn work away and so will usually tell you they cover your area, even if they don't. It's certainly not unusual for a reader to be given a ms simply on the basis that they once read a couple of books in that genre.

I've been lucky enough to work with quite a few WW authors. This has happened through an organic process, i.e. I joined the site more as a writer than an editor, then gradually found myself doing detailed critiques on people's work, which in turn led to people asking me to write reports on or edit their books. The good thing about that is the relationship has been two-way, e.g. I've been able to adapt what I do according to the on-going dialogue I have with writers here. For me, it's also very rewarding to remain in contact with writers and continue to help with their development. If anyone's interested in checking out what some WWers think about working with me, take a look at this thread: http://www.writewords.org.uk/forum/112_173946.asp

Terry