Helen, I've WW-ed you. You might regret asking - it's a long email!

Whoa, has this thread changed, or what?

I was minded to reply to Hopper re his original question, but as I carried on through the thread, I found that I'd totally forgotten what it was. Something about full MS's wasn't it?

It is an absolute joy to have requests for fulls. Having had a ton of rejections, the requests for fulls were like diamonds in the dark. My agent was good enough to provide me with a full page of suggestions on how to make the book really sing, and as most of her suggestions tied up with concerns that I had with the book, I went ahead with them.

Re the subject of big advances that the thread later became, my main worry with advances was based around the old addage: the bigger the advance, the more the publisher will market and promote the work. Not true of course.

S

Whoa, has this thread changed, or what?

I prefer it when threads go off at a few tangents!

It was originally about full manuscripts. I was trying to find out if, like me, people had more requests for them from small publishers than from agents.

I was thinking about sending only to small publishers in future, since I've never had a request at all for a full ms from an agent.

After reading the various posts from published writers I reckon it's best to keep sending to both small publishers and agents.

Andy

This is an old thread but I have just been contacted about it by a writer from another site, who came in here to have a look about, or something. Allegedly, Legend Press - mentioned in Hopper's original post - is a vanity press. This writer wanted me to make this known. They deny they are a vanity press, but it seems they are, as they ask for money and there's a sliding scale of payment - the more you pay, the better quality your book is, apparently. I'm passing on the information I was given by another writer, so if you are thinking about Legend, perhaps it would be as well to do some research. I haven't looked into them myself, but certainly I would ask questions about these payments. Sounds a bit worrying.

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There appears to be a big controversy about this, which I may have stumbled into! They certainly seem to be POD. Is POD the same as vanity? I don't know. I would advise anyone considering them to do a lot more research than I have! Might be good if someone who has direct experience came on to comment.

There appears to be a big controversy about this, which I may have stumbled into! They certainly seem to be POD. Is POD the same as vanity? I don't know. I would advise anyone considering them to do a lot more research than I have! Might be good if someone who has direct experience came on to comment.

'Vanity press' is a derogatory catch-all phrase for self-publishing companies. Sometimes also called 'subsidy publishing'.
POD (Print On Demand) is simply a method of self-publishing, ie, printing one copy at a time (as opposed to a company like Author House which prints a limited print run of several hundred, or several thousand, copies).


- NaomiM

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...which, in the case of companies like Author House, the author pays for at the time of printing.

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Legend Press is the POD publisher involved in the YouWriteOn POD publishing offer.

Thanks for that, Naomi. From this page it seems there are a number of packages available, starting at £399 and going up to a grand and a half. That looks and smells like old-fashioned vanity publishing to me. I don't see why anyone would use this option in preference to lulu, which by comparison seems like genuine print on demand, in that the process is paid for by the purchasing of books. OK, you may not sell a lot, and it's up to you to knock your ms into shape, but at least you're not paying out a lot of money up front.

1. YouWriteOn - Publishing Package 1 - Only £399 - Making Your Manuscript Into A Book Click Here to View Details 2. YouWriteOn - Publishing Package 2 - Only £699 - Making Your Manuscript Look Like A Great Book Click Here to View Details 3. YouWriteOn - Publishing Package 3 - Only £899 - Making Your Manuscript Look Like A Great Book with Proofing Package Click Here to View Details 4. YouWriteOn Premier Publishing Package - Only £1,499 - Making Your Manuscript Look and Sell Like A Great Book. Highly recommended. As well as producing, proofing and setting your book with a bespoke cover, Legend Press offers a full marketing consultancy service for your book, individually tailored to your book needs, and finding success as a self-publisher. Click Here to View Details

Independent magazines are a great outlet for short stories but speaking from experience, I'm not that taken with small book publishers. They just don't have the resources to truly compete in today's crowded market, and as my agent once told me 'If you fancy a hell of a lot of waiting, little to no financial reward and absolutely no audience, publish small'.

Harsh? I thought so too at the time. But then I suppose it depends on what you're aiming for. I published Unrequited through a small publisher and was thrilled to do so, but in terms of other novels, I wouldn't waste my time with the smaller houses again unless I had no choice. The reasons for this are just because it didn't give me the platform I wanted and despite my contract stating I get a royalty report every 6 months since release date (Sept 2007) I'm still waiting to hear anything...

Well done on the request though. I do think small publishing - any kind of publishing really - can be a good way to get your feet in the pool, if only to give one an idea of how this industry works and how sharp its teeth are. But to be brutally honest, I think you'll only sell lots of copies if you happen to be a first rate marketer with oodles of time to spare or you have that highly elusive runaway success. Many published books are only read by one or two people until they get buried under the perpetual cascade of commercial fiction and thus fade into obscurity. Aim high first.

JB

I just wanted to say i think it's a lot more complicated and less straight forward than that. When people talk of big publishers versus small it doesn't necessarily make sense in those terms. Publishers vary hugely and it very much depends on the type of book, the type of publisher etc. Big publishers might have more marketing spend but there is no guarantee any particular writer will have it spent on them - especially when there are other more famous writers. There can also be difficulty being entered for prizes if there are others who are contractually obliged to be entered. I am not saying this or that is better than the other. Obviously if you are with a massive publisher who spends huge amounts on marketing your book you are in with the best possible chance, but that is a rare situation and I think each case is very individual and other than that there are pros and cons to all situations that need to be thought about carefully in terms of the individual book and what best suits it. You can't make such blanket statements.

As Snowy says, it is more complicated. Publishing via a small publisher is a foot on the ladder; it is not a question of volume sales, rather it is validation that you are publishable, and it is more likely you will get an agent and a big publisher with subsequent books. There are also the small genre publishers, who put out a decent quantity of fiction in that genre, which would not be published elsewhere. There are also big publishers, who, say, have a childrens fiction section that only puts out half a dozen books a year - on a par with a small publisher.

- NaomiM

I'll soon know more about publishing's stark realities, that's for sure - 'Scars Beneath The Skin' should be in the shops in May.

I've changed jobs recently (from permanent to self-employed IT contractor). The plan, if it can be called a plan, is that this will allow me to take time off from the day job for the novel's sales&marketing.

Given the current state of the economy, this plan may be on a level with Baldrick's well-known, and often turnip-related, "cunning plans." I may be too anxious to say no to day-job work for fear of that work no longer coming my way. A certain amount of bravery may be required, which may explain the semi-permanent headache I've got these days and the "waking up in a cold sweat at 3AM" syndrome.

I just hope that the complete tanking of the entire world economy doesn't stop people buying novels.

Andy

Congratulations Andy/Hopper. I see you went with Flambard. My view is they are an excellent small publisher with a very good reputation. I once tried to get them interested in an earlier novel of mine - they turned it down, but I had a very good email correspondence with the editor, who asked to see something else. That was when MNW came along and published Taking Comfort, which was the something else I gave them to look at. I then retracted my submission before they had got round to reading it.

You can't make such blanket statements.

I was speaking entirely from personal experience, of course. There are presumably many authors that benefit through small publishing houses and yes, it is all a route to getting your name out there and climbing that ladder. All experiences will, naturally, vary.

JB