Just wondering is there anywhere I can look at figures of average advances for new crime/thriller novels in the UK? I mean for new writers rather than established ones. Not that I never write for money-only but I'm getting close to the "find an agent" stage and am writing this genre so I was just wondering what to modest sum to expect should I find a publisher who does an "average" print run.

The figures aren't collected anywhere as far as I know - lots of authors prefer to keep them private anyway.

The average advance for a first novel in any genre is £5,000-£10,000 for UK and Commonwealth rights if that helps. Obviously people get more, but when you see a significantly bigger figure it's worth having a long hard look, because often it's a two-book deal, and/or includes US and translation rights and other things which otherwise an agent would be selling separately.

Emma

And any advance is usually paid out in three instalments, rather than one lump sum… so I'm told.

Dee

I think it's massively variable.
Debut authors don't usually get loads whatever the genre. That said Martina Cole got over 100 grand for her first novel so you never know.
HB x

Dee's right - that's the other thing you have to factor in. A two-book deal which edges towards six figures does happen, though it's the minority, but you have to bear in mind that it might be paid in eight instalments over four or five years...

Oh, and subtract 10% or 15%-plus VAT agent's commission (more for a US or translation deal), and remember that what's left still needs to be taxed...

I blogged about it all a while ago: http://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/2008/02/not-just-singin.html

Emma

Of course, some publishers don't pay an advance, but that is offset by getting royalty cheques sooner than those authors who have been paid an advance.


- NaomiM

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Print runs for debut authors can be a little as a few hundred hardbacks and/or a few thousand paperbacks. Anything over and above that is a bonus.

Talking of tax...I've been wondering about this for a while. If you have a full time job that just pushes you into the 40% tax bracket and write in your free time and get published do you have to pay 40% on your earnings from your books? It seems really unfair to get taxed that highly for something you've slaved over every night (like a 2nd job!)! And if you get £5K for a book that doesn't leave much left after you've paid the agent and 40% tax has been taken off!

Well you're taxed on your total income, so it's not specifically your advance that's taxed - if a second job pushed you over the threshold that would be the same.

And your advance will probably be paid in several tranches, so the chances of it all ending up in one tax year are minimal.

But don't forget it's the net self-employed income that's taxed, after you've subtracted all the expenses of being self-employed. That's not just research trips and books and library fines and a new laptop, it's heat and light and insurance and cleaning and everything to do with using your home as a workplace. If your accountant knows what they're doing it can make a huge difference - chances are you'd reduce a £5,000 advance to something that wouldn't push you over the threshold.

The Society of Authors have good booklets and advice on tax, and run seminars occasionally, with speakers from one of the specialist accounting-for-authors practices.

Emma

SheScribbles - yes, you'd pay 40% tax; the IR don't care how you earned it. I was a student and I freelance now as well as work so I pay Classes 1 (through my job), 2 (flat rate) and 4 (8%) National Insurance (as self-employed), 9% student loan repayment as well as income tax. So, some of my earnings I have to pay 49% on. It's heart-breaking! Last January when I submitted my tax return I felt like enclosing the shirt off my back to go with it.

Any income from writing you'd be obliged to register as self-employed within three months of commencing work otherwise, in theory, they could investigate you and prosecute you for tax evasion. In practice they'd just work out how much you owe and ask for it plus interest (unless it was a huge amount of cash).

It sounds like if I do get published the money won't go very far after everyone has taken their cut.

You don't have to be published to register that you're setting up business as a self-employed writer. And you can make a loss (i.e. charge expenses against nil income) for about three years before they start expecting to see some income - at that point I found some freelance work which counted as writing, but I still made a loss for the next three or four years, till I got a deal. The loss gets carried forward, so it's really worth doing.

Another thing you can charge is the cost of courses - my PhD fees count.

Emma

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Small word of caution for people dreaming of a mega-deal. You can charge a proportion of the costs of your home as self-employed expenses (the fraction is one room out of all the rooms except k&b) BUT when you sell the house you will be charged capital gains tax on that same fraction of the profit you've made on the house since you moved in (not on the whole sale). However, you can then charge that same fraction of the cost of the new house as a business expense, so it cancels out...

It all sounds a bit millionairish, but the way house prices have been in the last few years it's more relevant to more people than you'd think.

Sorry, I meant you're supposed to let them know you're self-employed within three months of starting work, not from earning.

You're absolutely right about the expenses. Most of mine like phone, Internet, computers, etc are exhausted from my freelance work. I like the idea of trips out for research though.

Don't knock the travelling expenses. I charge mileage, coffee, etc. etc. every time I go up to Goldsmiths for a supervision. Can't do it when I go up to teach as Goldsmiths won't let me be self-employed as a visiting tutor, so I do have to keep track...

There's a quirk whereby you can charge the cost of a research trip, and if you take a day out to do holidayish things you just don't charge that proportion. But if you take a holiday, on which you spend one day researching, you can't charge that one day's proportion (tho' you still can things like entrance tickets and so on). But how they tell the difference I'm not sure. And they don't as far as I know read the book to make sure it did actually get it. Just as well, since I had to cut the Orkney section of ASA for other reasons.

Yes, I know I know too much about this stuff.

Bloody hell. I had NO IDEA it was this complicated! Thanks for the warnings and info though. So if I were lucky enough to get a book deal (even if it's a tiny one) I need to get an accountant. I bet they'd take a wadge of the advance too!

Gawd, hardly seems worth it.

That won't stop me from writing of course, but talk about the scales falling from my eyes!



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Sorry, can I just qualify something... If I were to get a book deal and I continue to work full time I need to set myself up as self-employed as well? That would make filling out forms that ask for my employment status interesting!

That would make filling out forms that ask for my employment status interesting!

I'm fairly certain all you need to disclose is your tax code from your main job.


- NaomiM