Hello,

I'm new to this site & have joined on a trial basis because I can't think what else to do.

I have been one of those secret scribblers for most of my life until four years ago when I had a Damascene flash of determination. It took me two years to write & re-write a novel I was willing to show anyone (it isn't just that I am slow, I also have a full-time job, a part-time job and young children so time is in short supply).

I have received 24 rejections over the past 2 years. In an attempt to move forward I applied to do an MA in creative writing and got another rejection. When I asked for some specific feedback (it's education so I thought I could get away with it) the course leader clearly detested my work and didn't have a good word to say about my writing sample.

When one looks at these facts coolly it would appear that I am deluded even to keep on trying and I must be totally lacking in talent. However, although I have had plenty of photocopied standard rejections I have also had quite a few kind rejections that say positive things. For example:

"I have read and enjoyed the material and you write well...you should definitely show your material to other agents if you have not already done so."

"Many thanks for letting me see the pages towards your 'quiet' novel which I enjoyed reading"

"Although your book was written well and flowed nicely we have decided not to represent your material."

I have been clinging to these kind words as an indication that I am not totally lacking. The thing is, being hopeful is so exhausting. It has also tainted my pleasure in writing purely for my own entertainment as it now feels like second-best, I want to be a writer, not just someone who writes.

Does anyone have any advice/ words of wisdom?

One way to look at this is to understand that the world of fiction publishing is a curious mixture of the creatively inspired and the commercially driven. Both kinds of work, however, have to sell, at least if they're produced by a traditional publisher. Very generally speaking, writers who work from a creative source tend to produce work that is far less predictably commercial than writers who are trained in writing to a brief. Which means with creative writers there are far more failures than successes. Just to confuse things, whereas most commercial fiction is produced by writers working to order, the really massive successes are often produced by those who write (at least initially) more from love than for money (e.g. Tolkien, J K Rowling).

Creative writers work from passion and inspiration; commercial writers work by contract (and yes, of course there are grey areas in-between, but I'm highlighting the extremes for clarity). There are commercial writers around who can produce a novel in 4 or 5 weeks, ready to publish, and do so year in year out. A creative writer, on the other hand, could go several years between books, either because he has nothing to say in the interim or because he has plenty to say but it just isn't what publishers believe will sell.

The problem for all us writers is that publishers tend to treat both kinds of writer in the same way. Which is not unreasonable, given that the goal of both types are ultimately the same: to get their books on shop shelves. The problem is compounded, however, firstly because most of us aren't quite sure where we sit on the creative/commercial axis, and secondly because many editors aren't either.

Believe it or not, 24 rejections is not that unusual. Someone in one of my writing groups recently posted his progress in the short story market. Last year, he made 150 submissions and sold precisely nothing. What's he going to do? Keep going, that's what. Is he mad? No; just persistent. He is a talented writer who's sold some stories over the years, and understands that getting a freely-written story published is like trying to hit a moving target: publishing slots are limited; those that remain will go first to authors with track records; editors have widely differing tastes which can change from day to day; publishers--whatever they may say about supporting original writing--have to play to the market, which means making sure enough stories in their magazine appeal to the widest demographic (which the more cynical might call pleasing the lowest common denominator).

What I tell the authors I work with is, if you're creatively-driven, the best thing you can do is just keep improving your craft, so that you know what you are producing is quality work. Most editors still love good writing, and this ultimately will give you the best chance. But it's a tough world to succeed in creatively. The most important thing you must do is never allow the fact that publishers are primarily commercially-driven to erode your belief in the quality of your work (assuming the quality is actually there, of course!).

Terry

Saturday, I found this moving. I'm just about to start on the process of sending to agents, so can really relate to what you're saying. You have shown such determination and commitment to writing and it's so painful when people don't seem to 'get' what you do. Clearly, from the personal responses you've had from agents, you write well. Perhaps the theme of your novel was such that it wasn't 'commercial' enough? Though one can speculate endlessly, which is part of the problem of a writer's situation - we have to blunder on, mostly in the dark and with little guidance. Have you considered doing an Arvon course? Where I live, we have European funding and can apply for funding for a mentor - why not look into this, too? You could also (if you can afford) send off for a critique from literary consultants such as Cornerstones, Hilary Johnson, The Literary Consultancy or Writers Workshop - you could ask specifically what is standing in the way of your book being publishable.
Finally, and most importantly, I'd say KEEP GOING. Start your second novel. Remember how many writers have first, unpublished novels in their bottom drawers. Apply the huge amount of you've learned in writing that first novel and GOOD LUCK!
Oh, and welcome to WW - I have found it brilliant.
Susiex

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Crossed with Terry!
By the way, Snowbooks are asking for submissions - they've just started a thread here yesterday. What's to lose?

Saturday, I've been where you are. It's not foolishness to hope while more than one person with experience is telling you that you write well. If others with experience don't, or don't accept you onto an MA, well, that's part of the territory. (Try another MA? A distance learning one? Do some more writing and try again?) As Susieangela says, the best thing to do is to start in on something new. You learn extraordinary amounts by writing a novel, and the next thing will incorporate everything you've learnt, and by the time you've finished that... and so on.

FWIW, it took me much, much more than two years and one novel to get a deal, and the amount I learnt along the way is worth everything to me: it was that apprenticeship that made me a writer. I can honestly say I'm glad my early efforts didn't get published, though some came close, and I minded like mad at the time. Nothing you write is ever wasted, if only because it shows you how to write something better next time.

Emma

In answer to your question, I don't think hope is ever foolish, and you need bucket loads in this industry to balance out all the disappointment. Disappointment and despair litter this journey so you're not alone. Without hope, what do we have? If you can take every knock back as something to learn from, rather than something that crushes you, you're already halfway there. The rest is all hard work and sheer bloody mindedness.

Best of luck

JB

Well said, JB!
Susiex

Thank-you so much, it's kind of you all to reply.

Of course I understand what you say about determination and perseverence and in normal life I would totally agree with you - very few people get what they want gift-wrapped and for most of us drudgery is a basic condition that we must negotiate if we are ever going to achieve anything.

The thing is, I worry that those rules don't apply to writing and that you are either good or you're not (yes I know practice is an important part of the development process but you can polish a pebble all you want and it will never sparkle like a diamond). You know those poor deluded souls on X-Factor type shows who can barely carry a tune and have all the charm of yesterday's plate-scrapings? At what point would it be better if they just realised that their dreams are unachievable, quite possibly harmful, and that they would be better off concentrating their energy on their real lives? Easy to say but hard to do, especially if you have spent three-quarters of your life singing (or in my case writing).

Obviously I can carry on writing for myself but for some reason that now feels like writing without purpose. I have reached the stage where I want to take it outside my head/ my lap-top and this last rejection has come as a real blow and made me question why I'm doing this.

You don't say if you have shown your work to anyone and asked for feedback before you sent it off to the Agents. A Writers forum like Write Words can be a great place to get constructive criticism which you can use to improve your writing. I would suggest taking the plunge and uploading an excerpt.

- NaomiM

The X-Factor is an interesting analogy to raise. You see, I don't think it has much to do with singing talent, so whether someone is 'either good or not' is not really relevant. It's more to do with having whatever it is that Simon Cowell's music empire and the mass British voting taste (God preserve us) decides at any given time is attractive to them--and how on earth can anyone possibly anticipate such a gruesome combination of taste?. Not only that, but you have to question the true value of success in winning such a competition anyway. How many X-factor winners have gone on to have a career that succeeds on the strength of their talent alone? And even when they're blessed with a terrific voice (like Leona Lewis), look at what they're made to use it for.

By contrast, supposing you had real singing/songwriting talent. You could work on it in isolation, following nothing but your heart and mind and spirit to develop your own style and voice. Then, when ready you could go to a local open song night and play. If you really had talent, people would let you now. You'd be asked back. You could make your own CD and sell it after gigs, or sign up with an agent who's come sniffing, and build a career. On the other hand, if you did dozens of open nights and got booed off the stage every time, you might conclude you weren't good enough . . . or maybe not. The history of music is full of examples of people who persevered in the face of hostility or indifference.

The problem with fiction, especially novels, of course, is that you can't try them out direct with the public like a singer can. Which means you're susceptible to the tastes, needs, fashions, etc, of a publisher and/or agent, before you can get established.

Having said all this, I take your point: there is always a question of whether one is good enough or not. But even if you aren't good enough now--and being rejected by the publishing industry isn't necessarily a sign of that--there's nothing to stop you making yourself good enough.

And I think anyone should question why they write. But not in terms of whether or not they're pleasing the publishing industry (unless you're a writer with a specific contract to fulfil). The question is, are you improving your ability to use words to capture rare, uplifting, insightful, exciting, heart-breaking truths about your life that others, given the chance eventually, will be moved by?

Terry

this last rejection has come as a real blow and made me question why I'm doing this.

Understandable. Everybody goes through these times. And yes, when it becomes important to 'get it out there' one feels much more vulnerable. But there is one thing I'm discovering, on the sharp learning curve I've embarked on this year, and that is that PERSISTENCE is the only way to find out whether you can be an author (you are a writer, already). From what I've heard from many published authors on this site, you can go on for years, gathering rejections. And then, one day, it changes.
Of course a pebble can't be a diamond. But then, what's a diamond but a construct in the eyes of the beholder? (Look at Paul Potts). And there's no point in likening yourself to the X-factor contestants who can't hold a tune, because you clearly can.
Unless there's something else you want to do with your life, keep going. I can think of far worse uses for a person than crafting words.
Susiex

One of the hardest things about novel writing is reaching an understanding that what gets rejected is the one particular book you've submitted. Agents do not take a newcomer on because they write well - they only take on a newcomer who has written a very good and very saleable book. So you haven't been rejected, and you've received positive feedback on your writing skills. What has been rejected is the particular book you've written.

I've had this happen to me three times now. There is a top agent who has said wonderful things about my writing, but just hasn't felt the novels I've so far written would make editors excited about signing up someone the reading public has never heard of it. This doesn't mean I'm not capable of writing such a book - it just means I haven't written it yet.

But yes, you do get disheartened. I've had a two year break from novel writing partly because I wondered why on earth I was putting so much energy into it (and partly because the day job went in an unexpected direction and has now developed into a new career). But ... just this week an idea sprang into my mind, and I've been making some notes, and have a feeling I'll be starting another novel quite soon.

I'm not in total agreement with Terry, who says commercial writers are writing to order. I know a few commercial novelists and don't see how that applies to them at all. None of them decided to write commercial fiction: they just wrote and discovered their natural style was at the commercial end.

What I do think happens, however, is that a lot of very good unpublished writers fall into a no-person's land: their novels aren't out-and-out commercial from a style and plot perspective, but neither are they out-and-out literary from a style and intellectual perspective. Sadly, it's that mid-market, neither one thing or another area that doesn't sell at all well. So agents and editors are very reluctant to take on books that fall into that zone as unless they can see either cash registers ringing or the Booker Prize beckoning, they are very, very cautious indeed.

What to do? Well, you either write another book or you don't. But I suspect that almost every published novelist has at least one unpublished novel tucked away. It is, in fact, quite rare to have your very first novel accepted.

At the end of the day, it's all a gamble Saturday. If you try and try, you might be wasting your time. If you never try, you'll never know. First and foremost, you should write because you love doing it. You should write because you can't not write. Everything else is a lot more secondary - being published (which even then is no guarantee of success and brings its own quandaries), being read, all of that should be ancillary to just performing the simple art itself and most importantly - most importantly of all - enjoying it. If you're not enjoying it, don't even bother, because that will come across loud and clear to anyone who does happen to read it.

The above is probably one of the best pieces of advice I've had about my writing, when I was all stressed up about money, success, book deals, agents, to the point it wasn't much fun anymore. We set ourselves such high targets, don't we? My advice for now is forget all that crap. Explore the craft. Relish it. If you can do that, everything else will follow.

JB

JB, I can't add to that; great advice.

Terry

So you haven't been rejected, and you've received positive feedback on your writing skills. What has been rejected is the particular book you've written.

I think this is very sage advice, and we should probably all have it carved above the monitor. Just because we've stapled our heart to the pages, as Editorial Anonymous puts it, doesn't mean it's our heart that's being rejected!

None of them decided to write commercial fiction: they just wrote and discovered their natural style was at the commercial end.

Yes, the commercial writers I know are like this too, the best ones, anyway. Martina Cole sells by the truckload because what she writes comes from her core, as I do. I'll never have her sales (who will?), but we're both happy. (Incidentally, she's a classic example of someone who got to where she is by persistence and faith in her work, including taking market stalls to sell her work when she was first published).

their novels aren't out-and-out commercial from a style and plot perspective, but neither are they out-and-out literary from a style and intellectual perspective. Sadly, it's that mid-market, neither one thing or another area that doesn't sell at all well.

I think they're harder to sell, but if that's what you write, it's a mistake to try to wrench your work too fiercely in one direction or the other, because it'll never be as good as what you'd write by nature and passion. If your work's easily labelled then it's easier to explain it to the trade, but if it's not, it has the advantage of being something new. I can't help writing crossover fiction, and because I'm a slow learner it took me a long time to learn do it properly, with rejections that had me beating my head against the wall. But I got there.

Emma

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Oops!

Martina Cole sells by the truckload because what she writes comes from her core, as my work does from mine

Saturday, anyone who can write as movingly and honestly as you do about how it feels to be rejected cannot possibly be devoid of all talent. Keep going. Try another kind of writing course, not an MA - a writing holiday or an Arvon course (MAs can be very narrowly-focused). I'm sure people here could recommend some good courses, that will be fun as well.
I really believe that if you write because you really love books, you will not be able to help producing something good eventually. Your own interest will drive you to push your boundaries and learn more and more about writing, and thus your writing will improve.
Please think of getting published as something completely separate to your writing. There are many, many great writers who struggle to be published, or when published, struggle to sell.
I now have a deal for 3 children's books, but I still question my own talent. There are many days when I think "I don't have the right to write, I'm no good at it, I should give up." When you get those feelings, you have to understand that how you feel has nothing to do with whether you can write or not, even less whether you have any right to keep going, it is just your ego talking. Keep going anyway. (what was it Beckett said? "I can't go on. I'll go on".)
At the end of the day, even if your writing sucked, that would not be a reason to give up!