Hiya,

I've been reading up on the internet on when to send out material and I seem to find a lot of tips to send out material before the novel is finished, to avoid writing a full novel that turns out not to be sellable.

But it seems a bit strange to me to send out sample chapters if the novel isn't finished?
I discussed it with a publisher in belgium that I'm working with on another (non fiction) book and they said that it'd be a good idea to get a preliminary take on the story.

What's your take on this?


Vicky

My take on this is that publishers inhabit an entirely different world to writers, and have absolutely no idea of what a novel looks like in its early drafts. Many of them really seem to think that the version they put in the shops is the only one the author ever wrote.

I had various pieces of advice from my agent - who has never written a novel, despite having sold thousands - and, although the essence of what she said was sensible, it didn't suit the way I wrote. For example, she told me to plan every point of my plot before I started writing, which is absurd.

I would seriously advise against submitting a novel before it's the best you can make it. A publisher would have been advising you purely from a mercenary/economic perspective, the bottom line of which is, 'There is no point writing if it's not going to be published.'

But that's not true. You have to write the book that's in you. It might not be publishable (esp if it's your first), but there's no point in writing anything else.

Pfft, thanks, that was exactly how I saw it, but I was beginning to think that I might be the only one seeing it that way.

I might very well be wrong, though!

I'd second Sappho's advice. A few thoughts in no particular order

Yes, agents have no idea what a first draft looks like. Experienced agents may be able to tell that the seeds of something good are in there, but they can only rarely afford to commit the time to working with you to find out if it really does have the makings of something sellable. It may be possible to sell an established author's book thus, but with an unpublished author, until they sell the book, the agent's taking an expensive gamble by taking you on, and they don't like the odds to be longer than strictly necessary.

Non-fiction is entirely different, in that you've got a realistic hope of getting it commissioned on the basis that a) you've got a good subject and plan and b) the sample chapters prove you can write. Don't listen to anyone who only knows about non-fiction telling you anything about how-to-get-published.

The tales you hear of selling on the basis of sample chapters are a) incredibly rare b) apply mainly to commercial fiction where plot and concept is all, and the samples only have to prove you can basically write.

Usually, you only get one crack at each agent. If an agent rejects your submission, you can't easily re-submit the later, finished novel unless they said in their rejection they'd be happy to. If you send it again unasked, they may have an uneasy feeling they've seen it and think you're a plagiarist, or they'll think, 'and I rejected it', which is a black mark from the beginning.

The competition is so ferocious - my agent, personally, gets 1,000 scripts a year - that you need your work to be the best it can be, and you can't possibly know that if you haven't finished the book and revised it and revised it again, and left it in a drawer for three months, and revised it again.

Emma

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We cross posted - I realise I'm preaching to the converted, here. But it makes me so angry when I hear of people taking that kind of thing for gospel. Would that it were that easy!

Thanks a lot all for confirming these. I must say that I felt very uneasy if I had to send in unfinished work, even though it is commercial fiction ;-)

send out material before the novel is finished, to avoid writing a full novel that turns out not to be sellable.

I believe this is standard with non-fiction - pitch the idea first in the hope of being commissioned to write the book.
But rare for fiction.

Hi

I would strongly advise against sending off anything that wasn't complete, solely because you never really know what you have until it's finished and edited. To have an edited and balanced novel takes time and attention, and in my experience, the lack of it is noticeable a mile off.

Agents are less and less willing to play editor to new writers, so yes, as Emma and Sarah say, there are no hard and fast rules, but you want your MS to be the best it can be before you go trying to flog it.

JB

Just to agree with the replies you've already had. I think its more standard to send a proposal and a couple of sample chapters for a non-fiction book you'd like comissioned. With fiction, it has to be the best it can be before you start sending it out, and that means finished.
Just think how awful it would be if you sent off your sample only to have the agent of your dreams call and request the full mss asap, and you have to tell him that it would be another year before s/he could see it? They don't make any money until you do, so any pre-publication editing and support they give you is costing them - I doubt any agent dealing in fiction would want to get into that.

B

Just to put another point of view.

For example, she told me to plan every point of my plot before I started writing, which is absurd

My agent also insists on this. I find it incredibly,incredibly useful. He can tell from the first 50 pages and the full, detailed bullet point plot, how much he could probably get for the book, who the possible takers would be and whether film rights are a realistic possibility.

(and he needs film rights to be a realistic possibility before he'll green-light a plot.)

It therefore takes me almost as long to write the plot as to write the book.

So there are other ways to do it. Plotting in isolation is tough - because you don't hear the character's voices so easily. And I find it very tough to have to hold the whole novel in my head for weeks, probing all the twists and the reversals etc, to see if I'm getting everything out of them that I can.

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To demonstrate what this approach can achieve - he got a £1.5 million six-book deal for one of his authors (Michelle Paver), based on 7 chapters and an outline.

Lots of excellent reasons here for not sending out unfinished mss (you do hear of the odd occasion this method works, but it's incredibly rare, especially from a completely unknown first-time novelist). But I'll just expand on waxlyrical's point, that a novel takes so long to write it often changes in tone and form and even structure as it goes along. So what you planned your book to be at the end of chapter 1 is not how it turns out, and then the opening needs re-working in the light of that.

My agent also insists on this. I find it incredibly,incredibly useful. He can tell from the first 50 pages and the full, detailed bullet point plot, how much he could probably get for the book, who the possible takers would be and whether film rights are a realistic possibility. (and he needs film rights to be a realistic possibility before he'll green-light a plot.)

I suppose it depends whether you're writing a book to make money by whatever means, or because you have something to say, and you're looking for the opportunity to be allowed to say it.

Emma

Anyone thinking of submitting to Redhammer/Peter Cox - which I understand, without spending more time researching it than I can spare, you can only do if you pay to subscribe to Litopia - might want to have a look here first:

http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pealr.htm

Emma

I'm just trying to entertain children, the more the better. No nefarious plan to indoctrinate, educate or anything...(!) Even humble entertainers need something to say. The world doesn't save itself from the crises we authors of adventure stories create!

Having said that, I've snuck a certain amount of subtextual content in there, but you'd need to have read widely in the field of Latin American literature to notice.

So far no-one has...muhahaha

Anywho - Emma's got a point, this is more an attitude you'll find from very commercially-driven agents. However, honestly, I've found it a method which has revolutionised how I write.

I do believe two things though:
1. There is no method. There is only the right method for you. Each writer has to discover his/her own through trial and error.
2. Even if thoroughly planned, the finished book is better than the plan. The plan should be an indication of minimum expected quality, and honestly, I think that's what my agent is looking for - a ballpark estimate of what he can get for it.

Emma, that's P/E thing is out of date. Litopia has been free-to-join for months. It costs him a lot of money to run Litopia (it runs on a dedicated server that he pays to maintain), so he was looking to combine a fee to offset costs, and to combine it with an idea he had for a new way to pitch to him.

It doesn't cost to pitch to Redhammer - but you do first have to try the pitch out on the Litopia community, who will give you crits and advice.

Then, when you do pitch, he will actually give you feedback.

No form rejections. Actual advice on where you are going wrong.

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Added 1/3/07

If you check the link posted by Emma above you will see that information about Redhammer has now been changed by the site owners.