I don't think people are being prescriptive unnecessarily. As Emma says, we need to avoid looking like amateurs. You don't write a job application letter that says you owe it all to your mother, even if it's true. It's important to distinguish between what is professional and what is personal especially at a stage when the person you are dealing with doesn't know you. It may be sad and unfair but what seems like, and often is, genuine gratitude and recognition of the contribution of others can read like sentimental self-indulgence which is not an impression it's wise to create.

And I can't see why a dedication should make an agent/publisher look at the chapters more closely. At the submission stage dedications are irrelevant and therefore merely waste the recipient's time. Since we're desperate to get out of the slushpile it's surely unwise to offer anything other than the essentials.

Naomi

You don't spend four years writing a job application. What's amateurish about a simple 'For my mother'? It shows a modicum of self-effacement at the very least - a trait many agents, along with a propensity to write, may want in their clients. Yes, avoiding sentimental self-indulgence is a good thing.

It's not prescriptiveness to give an answer when you're asked a question. No one has to do what others do themselves, or what's suggested.

Most agents don't care, some won't notice. But after a few years of struggling with slushpiles, many agents do get hyper-sensitive to anything that hints at a writer who isn't going to be practical and businesslike about things, either because a) it's all terribly personal to the writer, which could get tricky, (agents/editors know it's terribly personal to all writers, but get wary of dealing with the manifestations) or because b) including a dedication shows some though not terminal ignorance about the book production process. Good writing trumps all, but if you're a borderline decision... Why give an agent anything in a submission that they won't want to know about?

And dedications are no suprise anyway - the whole book trade knows that everyone dedicates their first book to their parents, unless they have children, in which case...

Emma

I always wish I had a good friend, called Hommy Beg, so I could make a really cool dedication.

Long arsed, Oscar-style thanks pages really piss me off.

I like to believe the myth that a novel is entirely the work of the author. It doesn't matter if it isn't, the myth survives, but once you start watering it down with thanks to x,y and z, suddenly it seems to be manufactured, rather than written.

It's prescriptive to answer 'Definitely not' when that's patently balls. I'm glad you know what an agent wants and also what the 'whole book trade knows'.

Let’s be realistic. How many agents are going to reject a submission because it doesn’t have a list of acknowledgements? No, I've never heard of any either. So, given the option, definitely don’t include one.

My unpublished first novel has a dedication and acknowledgements section 'written' in my head - like all the books in Dream's library.

But I'm far too superstitious to commit it to paper - and as I'm currently writing a novel set in mythical Greece I know there's this nasty little character called Hubris perched on my shoulder waiting to pounce

Sarah

I would love to dedicate mine to my ex, with the inscription Fuck you, but then, that would lead her to believe I still think about her.

(Saying, 'For my previous female self' might not be such a great idea, though.)

Hehe - love this. I think you are missing your true vocation in comedy Sammy, after all.

I have to admit, I know nothing about this subject. I think it is a silly thing for any publisher to be annoyed about. I must say I do get fed up of this long list of dos and don'ts in case they think you're a this sort of person or a that sort of person. I can't help thinking - so what if you're not organised, a nutter or use Gothic script 17, you might be the weirdiest weirdo on the planet and still write a fantastic book and be an interesting person with something to say.

On the other hand, I have to add, that having done a lot of playscript reading for theatres, that it tended to be a bad sign if there were quotations on the front. I think this might have had something to do with the fact that a lot of people sending in the plays maybe had been studying at university and wanted to write a play about something they were studying. But nearly always these particular plays had no sense of drama and did not have a sense of what works on a stage.

So maybe the point people are making is that if something crops up a lot (like the quotations did for this particular sort of play I'm describing) the reader can't even help having associations after a while - which might be worth avoiding. It sounds like more people than not have negative associations with dedications on this thread which is maybe interesting to know.

so what if you're not organised, a nutter or use Gothic script 17, you might be the weirdiest weirdo on the planet and still write a fantastic book and be an interesting person with something to say.

Well yes you might. And there’s nothing wrong with being a weirdo. But you need to be a weirdo with a businesslike attitude. We’re not agents, so we don’t have the experience to understand the level of this sort of problem. From what agents say (in droves), they get very tired of the stuff offered in strange fonts and with gimmicky add-ons. Apparently they judge this – THEY judge this – as unprofessional. And what they're looking for, above all, is writers they can work with on a professional level. So it’s best to start off on the right foot. (which includes avoiding clichés like the right foot)

Dee

Don't get me wrong, Dee, I'm not suggesting we should alltry to come across as bonkers! Though might be fun

I was just saying I can see both what Sammy's saying and what you are saying. I think your advice perfectly valid and I can see where its coming from. I was just saying that being good at writing and good at the packaging don't always go together in the same person.

On another note though, I think maybe its possible to get too neurotic about all this stuff. And feel a bit frightened and overwhelmed when it comes to submissions because of all the warnings and different advice out there. I've been to several events about publishers/agents dos and don'ts and you can end up a bit browbeaten by the sheer number and contradictory nature of them.

I don't understand that thing about copyright signs for example. I've heard that before, but why is that so symbolic and is it fair? A writer may be nervous and think that's the right thing to do is not necessarily an expert in this area and - that's why they are looking for an agent in the first place, isn't it?

Surely straightforward submissions that are legible and take account of any specific guidelines on the website should be acceptable?

Let's cut to the heart: If you think it's important, either to you or the script, then include it.

Let’s be realistic. How many agents are going to reject a submission because it doesn’t have a list of acknowledgements? No, I've never heard of any either. So, given the option, definitely don’t include one.

Well, yeah, that is being realistic, but it isn't answering the question; it's merely going along with the norm. That isn't a bad thing - it's already been said that going out of your way to appear zany is probably going to ring bells that say you are probably not professional in your approach, but a simple dedication, if the person in question is the reason you wrote the book, is not going to make an agent chuck it aside and say, "Oh, for fuck's sake..." where a long thanks list probably will. Likewise, an accompanying sheet of simple acknowledgements, if you've got a lot of scientific reference from a particular source, or if chunks of the story are interview based, does not look unprofessional or zany.

I never see the need for putting a copyright sign on my work for two main reasons.

1) I'm not so paranoid, as I was as a teenager, that if I sent work out it might be plagiarised.
2) Chances are, the text is going to change a good deal before publication - should it get accepted.

Yes but is it fair for a writer to be pre-judged on whether they put on a copyright sign or not - that's what I was asking?

I wouldn't have thought so. I suppose some could argue that its amateurish and naive; others would say it's not only reasonable, but professional and very much a way of showing you know your rights. Others still would say it's particularly important when submitting to foreign publishers and agents, the United States in particular.

Speaking of rights, how many of you (I say "you" because I don't) put a cover sheet on your sample chapters, or full script stating what rights you are offering?

I don't why I never have. I suppose it's partly because I'm not sure if it is First British Serial Rights on offer with a novel and secondly because I'd hope it would all be down in the contract if I make it that far. Any other views on this?

Colin