I remember being told at school that suicide is the ultimate assertion of 'my will be done' rather than 'thy will be done' - which is why in olden days they buried you at crossroads.

(BTW - this was discussion in English not indoctrination!!)

I also rather like the 'betwixt the stirrup and the ground he blessing sought and blessing found' idea - it's never too late to book your ticket to the afterlife.

And the concept in Terry Pratchett - that what happens afterwards is up to you - you get the afterlife you choose to believe in so if it's valkyries and mead you're in luck but if it happens to be eternal torment in the bottomless pits of hell you can have it if you insist.

But more seriously - the old anglo saxon idea that life is like a bird flying through a lighted room - from the dark into the dark - what lies beyond and before. And we just don't know.

sarah


<Added>

and yes, I am fascinated by the idea of which is 'real life.' Tell us more, Prosp?

Well, as a gay man writing about Satanism, I sure do hope that the Christian view isn't true, or I'll be - in a word - f*****. Or maybe just like Freddie - 'Beelzebub has a table set aside for meeeeeeeeeeee'.

I love that Saxon idea, Sarah, a very evocative image. These are all brilliant concepts, thank whoever or whatever that we are blessed with the imagination to perceive them. I've heard of 'this life' often being referred to as practice for the next, and yes, the Pratchett Theory. Lol. I dearly hope that I'll wake up and someone with big slanted eyes and a bulbous throbbing brain will say 'You did good. You never quit. Wanna go again?'

JB

Hi Waxy

I love that idea!!! The whole concept just really resonates with me.

I would suggest the reason the concept resonates with you is that you are recognising a universal truth.

We have been taught to believe that our future depends on our past, you go to heaven if you have been good, hell if you have been bad. This is based on a false premise. Neither the future or the past actually exists. The future is always potential, the past becomes increasingly distorted as we absorb new information. The only reality is the present, an infinitesimally small slice of time sandwiched between our imaginary past and future.

So we have been misled into believing in shadows and phantoms and all in the cause of control. If you want to know who is controlling us look for those who invented these fictions.

The truth is the present is all there is. This is the reality we experience in spirit where there is no time or space as we understand it, but rather all time and space existing simultaneously.

We come here to learn about some of the important aspects of our universal existence such as compassion, patience, tolerance, and most importantly Unconditional Love which is the driving force behind everything.

I suggest to people it is like going to school. You leave the place where you normally live to enter an environment which has rules and regulations which are often imposed by detached organisations such as education authorities. You have to adopt a uniform, a body, which is often of a specific colour or style to distinguish you from other schools. These differences can lead to rivalries between schools.

You learn or fail to learn the lessons you are taught, though the actual value of the lesson is often not expressed, you simply learn the procedure or mechanism. Did anyone ever explain the practical applications of algebra?

At the end of school you return home and discard your uniform. In the common parlance, die. However, I would suggest there is no such thing as death, just a return home from school.

Best

John

Neither the future or the past actually exists.

Yes, I read about this concept in a brilliant book by Alan Watts entitled The Wisdom of Insecurity. He held to the view that the reason everyone is so insecure, is because they are striving for security, which, in a universe that is in a flux of now (or Zen) is, by default, impossible. Why plan for a future that doesn't exist? You can only hope to steer the now.

I like your idea about death. Energy doesn't die, no, and I really do hope that it will be our greatest adventure.

Of course, I reserve saying that I actually know anything for sure. Of course, I don't. But I hope. I have faith that everything will be exactly as it is meant to be.

JB

Hi JB

He held to the view that the reason everyone is so insecure, is because they are striving for security, which, in a universe that is in a flux of now (or Zen) is, by default, impossible.

And there you have it. I haven’t come across this idea before, but it fits. Furthermore, I believe we are deliberately kept anxious, by the activities of those who seek to control us, (I bet you can guess who they are) to stop us from finding our true path. Though equally, I believe there are too many of of us awake and aware now for the Dark side to control us anymore. We have won, and all the trauma we see about us is just the last desperate efforts of a defeated enemy.

I have faith that everything will be exactly as it is meant to be.

This is a very important, valuable, and indeed accurate belief. But it does involve our willingness to allow it. Sometime ago I felt very strongly that something absolutely monumental was about to happen to Life the Universe and Everything. I felt the pressure of potential building over a period of several weeks and then suddenly, inexplicably it went away. When I asked my Guides what had happened they said ‘Someone changed their mind.’

So we do have a massive influence on what happens. We are truly creators of our own reality whether we realise it or not. Our advancement, our move to the next level of understanding, involves us all collectively adopting an attitude of Unconditional Love. We are moving towards it, but it is two steps forward and one back at the moment. However, I am confident we will get there.

Best

John

Hi

Yes, one has to allow things to happen naturally. Fear is death, but death is not fear.

You really should get hold of that Alan Watts book. It changed so much of my perspective back when I was a trapped in the past, or anxious about the future, to the point of not really existing in the present. I'm sorry to say that I think that is the general condition of most human beings on planet Earth, but I could be wrong. I don't mean that as a judgement so much as just how it strikes me. However, it isn't a static condition, and everything can change in the blink of an eye exactly for the very reason that nothing is permanent.

Accepting that made it that much easier to breathe.

JB

Hi Waxy

when I was a trapped in the past, or anxious about the future, to the point of not really existing in the present. I'm sorry to say that I think that is the general condition of most human beings on planet Earth

sadly I think you are absolutely right. So many poor souls suffering unnecessarily. Be at peace with your own soul and the positive vibes you will then emanate will animate all those about you.

Best

John

Not the sort of discussion I'd have thought would crop its head on these forums. It is a topic that is very important to me, and so I feel the need to comment. It is, of course, also very close to everyone else, so I'll try not to step on anyone's toes.

I'm occasionally atheist with tendencies towards being slightly agnostic. The whole thing is a puzzle. I firmly beleive that mankind is in no way superior to other life on this planet beyond our belief in our own intelligence. I see no evidence that would suggest that, spiritually, we deserve more than say a dog, an elephant, or a cockroach. To some people however, the concept of an afterlife - specifically one which is an improvement on the current life - is comforting, and even something to strive for (it being dangled in carrot-like fashion for the last few millennia by monotheism), and a reason to live a good life as a good person.

I don't find the thought of an afterlife comforting. In fact, the very idea terrifies me. Spend eternity in paradise? No thanks. Eternity is a very long time, we can't even begin to comprehend infinity. I'd get bored after a few hundred years. There's only so much you can do, even in paradise, right?

I'm quite happy believing that, when I die, that's it. Game over. I don't expect to get whisked off to a happy place. I expect brain death to wash away the remnants of my consciousness, and erase my malformed personality from the face of the universe once and for all.

And if there is an afterlife? It better have a better communication system than any I've seen in life, because it's going to have a lot of people there. Not just people either. Surely, as they say, all dogs go to heaven. Probably cats too. Giraffes, goats and mice. There's no basis to exclude them, really. I wonder what the average fish would make of an afterlife. Eaten by an octopus one minute, floating blissfully in the infinite void, surrounded by predators and prey alike, living together in friendship for eternity the next. Not buying it.

But you don't need me to press my opinion onto you. If you have reason to believe it, something intanglible, something you feel, but can't show me, something unique to you, then you keep on believing. Whatever gets you through the day.

Regards to the other part of this debate. I've felt suicidal numerous times. None of which had anything to do with religion, and none of which would have been influenced in any way had I believed that suicide would invalidate my ticket to the halo and feathery wings awaiting me in the next life. Life is cruel sometimes, and in extremes, you can find yourself asking the question of whether it's worth living at all. If you're feeling that kind of pain, the last thing you want to conceptualise is existing for eternity, paradise or no.

Unfortunately for all of you, my suicidal cravings have not, as yet, come to fruition, and I'm still around to bore you incessantly with my broken record.

Closing comments, I don't think there is a need for mankind to consider an afterlife. After all, belief is inherently individual, and so any generalisation of belief will be exactly that - a generalisation.

I'm sure you will all thank me for keeping my post on this brief. I could, after all, fill volumes with the thoughts that occur to me every time I get onto this subject!

One thing, IB. Time and space as we understand it doesn't exist in the before/after life, so the problem of getting bored doesn't arise. Futhermore, there is no free will. There is no need for it. Everything is a state of Unconditional Love, the actual Force that defines, powers and creates everything in the Universe and therefore has no desires or needs. Where there is only love there is no fear. In this life we have both and we heavily lean to being in a fearful state and indeed we are encouraged to be in that state by - well, take your pick there are no end of candidates.

So, the conditions in the before/after life are complely different to what they are here.

Best

John

I simply must pose the question of what exists in the absence of time? A dimension without which there is just the moment, suspended in eternity. Time is like width, depth or length. It's like a cube with only two dimensions, length and width. It's no longer a cube.

As for existing under the umbrella of unconditional love, what benefit is there for those to whom such a state would not be desirable? Or do they simply not get there? Where else would they go?

I guess my point would be that there cannot be a one-solution-fits-all afterlife. Our diversity in life must be reflected in any afterlife, otherwise it would not be desirable, and therefore Unconditional Love˜ cannot be a universal truth or expectation.

The other thing that always gets me with the afterlife; if I didn't believe in it, because I'd been brought up to question things, and couldn't find the evidence I needed to convince me of its existence, would I be barred from entry? Certain religions certainly seem to think so. But how can it be my fault? If the world couldn't give me a reason to believe, or it gave me a reason to believe the wrong thing, should that exclude me from the gift of eternal paradise?

Hope I'm not offending anyone.

Hi IB

For what it is worth you are not offending me

Time is an artificial construct which allows us us to have the entirely imaginary concepts of past and future. The past is simply an increasingly inaccurate recall of events that occured in the Now, the infinitesimally thin slice of the so-called 'time line' that actually exists. The future is simply an imaginative extrapolation of our increasingly inaccurate recall of events that occured in the Now.

As for existing under the umbrella of unconditional love, what benefit is there for those to whom such a state would not be desirable?

It isn't compulsory, you can sit under a rock and sulk. But once you have experienced Unconditional Love, I can't imagine you wouldn't want it.

I guess my point would be that there cannot be a one-solution-fits-all afterlife. Our diversity in life must be reflected in any afterlife, otherwise it would not be desirable, and therefore Unconditional Love˜ cannot be a universal truth or expectation.

Why must anything be reflected anywhere else? I know that can be comforting, but trust me, Unconditional Love is unlike anything you have ever experienced before and infinitely more comforting in every respect.

The other thing that always gets me with the afterlife; if I didn't believe in it, because I'd been brought up to question things, and couldn't find the evidence I needed to convince me of its existence, would I be barred from entry? Certain religions certainly seem to think so.

IB, the 'before/afterlife' is not a place, it is a state of being and nothing and no-one is barred entry. You can choose not to be happy, but that is your choice and why would you choose it? Likewise you can choose not to experience Unconditional Love, by why would you? You can choose not to experience the 'afterlife' by determinedly ignoring it or believing you are not entitled to it. As a Psychic I have released an earth-bound suicide who had such a belief. That person is now at peace and experiencing the Unconditional Love I mentioned.

Consider the possibility that religions are not about getting you to a state of sublime being but more about controlling you while you are here.

I hope I'm not offending anyone.

Me too

Best

John

No IB, it isn't offensive to express one's honest views. I don't think anyone is here to convert anyone or preach to the choir. Personally, I think all time is an illusion, and the enemy of freedom, but then, I'm a romantic, and I accept that when the chips are down, I don't really know anything at all. That's how I like it.

JB

Hi IB,

Thanks for your sharing your experiences about suicide.

Prospero in actuality time is a fundamental quantity, in fact it's one of the fundamental quantities. It's as real as you or I.

Geoff

In your opinion Geoff. That's all.

JB

Let's avoid the inevitable conflict of belief inherent in such discussions and agree to differ on the whole time issue.