This is the title of an excellent article I just read in the Review Section of Saturday's Guardian. It's about Juliet Sutcliffe's experience of a Creative Writing MA course at UEA, Norwich, full of interesting insights, as well as surprising comments like: 'Nobody teaches much of anything at UEA'

Someone here knows how to work out the URL, so it would be great if they could supply it, also perhaps explain how I could do it myself. I'll try googling the title when I've finished this.

I'd like to invite others to comment on their own experiences of these courses, too.

What determined the choice of a particular course?

Is there an upper age limit?

How much do they cost?

Is accommodation offered?

Sheila






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You can find it by googling author and title. I should have realised.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1601996,00.html

Fascinating article. What she describes wasn't my experience, but I can see that the same ingredients are there. I think the implied point is that on the whole, such courses are more about supporting you while you get better, than magically teaching you to write. And that they may make you confront things beyond your comfort zone: in her case, re-writing. I don't think there's an upper age limit - the oldest person on my course was at least 70 - and the costs seem to be around the £3000 mark, either in one year or in two halves if part time. Accommodation? I suppose there might be if the University houses its Masters students, but I don't know.

Have you had a look at the thread on Creative Writing MAs in the Lounge?

Emma

Looks to me like she wasted her money. Any decent book on creative writing will tell you that the secret is often hard work, and usually in the form of revision. I was seriously considering doing an MA at Newcastle. There are two universities, each run an MA in Creative Writing. One costs around £3700, the other £4000. A lot of money to go to a class that doesn't teach.

Good article, all the same. Thanks for the link.

Colin M

Any decent book on creative writing will tell you that the secret is often hard work, and usually in the form of revision.

True. The difference I think is that a workshop or course can tell you whether you're revising the right things, and in the right direction - it's live, as it were. And - as much discussed on WW lately - you learn an awful lot from workshopping others' work, which doesn't come up in the article. What interested me was that she obviously made such a major commitment of life and money - and was good enough to be accepted onto it - with a very vague idea of what she wanted from it, and not much experience of that level of work. My MPhil cost less than £3000 and was worth every penny, and many, many more.

Emma

I got the impression from the article that the course was very thin on workshops. If I had the money, I would still do either of the courses at Newcastle because the message I got from the people I talked to were that those courses did involve a lot of workshops, visiting lecturers and teaching.

I think for many people the need to pay the money is all part of the equation, because a financial commitment is more "real" - ie, I've paid for it, I'm going to make sure I pass. I think I would fall into that category.


Colin

Thank you for your comments. I will look at the lounge thread, too. Yes, I can see the point about payment being a spur, but the £3,000 in fees over a year is just the tip of the iceberg when you consider that giving up a job for a year is a further - what, at least £20,000- £25,000 or so? I'm thinking of what it costs minimally to live independently in London. I've done part-time MAs myself in the past, although not in Creative Writing, and certainly the two year option is more attractive to someone who has to do paid work, but I have the impression that a Writing MA needs a full-time commitment, or at least a majority-time commmitment.

I was thinking that the real value is not the teaching, or even the support, but the time and commitment.

Wouldn't joining a writers circle or class in London have the same benefit as the workshops? You imply, Emma, that a certain level of competence or body of work is required to be accepted. What form does that take, generally speaking?

Sheila

Most of the part-time Masters I looked at suggested about 16hrs a week was needed - tho' rather in a 'how long is a piece of string' spirit, and usually one day a week in college - two modules in each of two years, say, instead of four in one. Everyone's life is different, but I guess quite a few people could squeeze that into their normal lives one way or another. My MPhil was all a bit different, because distance learning. Glamorgan don't interview - they just go on the work (2-3 chapters of my novel, as I recall, or I suppose 2-3 stories, or maybe 10-12 poems? I'm guessing), but most do interview a shortlist that's based on the work, I think. I know most have more applications than places, so they're selective to that extent, at least, which might not be true of a class or a writer's circle.

The other use for a Masters is that according to several agents I've heard, having done one really does get you higher up the slush pile these days, because they know that you will have a certain level of competence, even if you're not publishable yet.

Emma

I did part-time distance learning. I did find that a lot of others on the course didn't have full-time jobs, like I did, and at times it was a struggle to fit everything in (particularly when I had a few months of it clashing with a work qualification, so in effect I was doing two postgrad courses and a job at once!!), but it worked out. I got a lot from it and I have no regrets - and there's no way I could have afforded full-time!

Cath

Distance learning would cut out the workshops altogether, I suppose, apart from Summer School, or were you put in touch with people on the course who lived near to you?

I'm in a dilemma myself about how far down the Creative Writing route I want to go, although I like writing fiction and would like to get better. Do I want to embark on a 'serious' course when other resouces are available? Age is a factor I have to take into consideration, as well as cost, although neither would be crucual.

Yes, I can see how having one MA means you are likely to finish another, and institutions have to think about their percentage pass rates as well as fees, because they play a part in funding and recruiting. However, I don't know how comparisons can be made between your average MA starting qualifications,i.e. a good degree in the subject or a related one, and those for a Creative Writing MA.

I can see how specialist knowledge helps to get published, although not necessarily in fiction-writing. My film book grew from my media studies dissertation, and in a way I was lucky because writers weren't falling over themselves to write introductary books on Chinese film for undergraduates. I answered an ad on an notice board in the film library.

I know it's a separate issue, but my aim is to earn money writing, that is to aim for publication, and Creative Writing doesn't seem to be the sort that pays, at least not for your average writer like myself. Having said that, there's almost no writing that doesn't demand at least some 'creative' input, which is why I don't mind taking on any kind of writing.

Thanks for your input. The article made me think more about something that's been at the back of my mind, to which I need to give more thought.

Sheila

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resources; crucial; a notice board; Grrrr...

We had regular online workshops using Lotus Notes software. I find them more beneficial than 'real' workshops, actually. It was good to have the 2 week summer school too, though, which was quite intensive.

What do you mean age is a factor? I was 23 when I did my MA and by far the youngest!! I actually felt very self-conscious of this to begin with at the summer school.

My MA entry requirements (Lancaster) were a 2:1 relevant degree and a portfolio of writing work of 'publishable standard' (I think I sent two or three short stories). I think that's fair enough!

And as Emma points out, it has given me some headstarts as far as the slush pile is concerned.

Cath

I meant I am 62. I think agents would be much more interested in a younger person starting out on a career in novel-writing because there's time to build up a reputation, etc. I know older women do start to write fiction, but I suspect contacts are more important in that case.

I am thinking of writing a novel based on the life of the sister of a Qing dynasty Emperor.The research attracts me, building on the knowledge of China and Chinese history I have researched already. Should I apply to an MA Creative Writing course to complete it? Or a University with a Chinese department, like SOAS or Westminster? Or should I just plough on ahead on my own ( which to some extent I'm doing anyway)? Those are some of the questions I'm pondering.



Sheila

I know you are older - that is my point. My experience was the opposite! The majority of people on my MA were older women whose kids had grown up, etc. and now wanted to devote time to writing. I think the distance learning course had a slightly older demographic than the campus-based course, though. That's speaking from the POV of unis, though, I don't know about agents. Not that it really matters! Writing has always seemed to me to be one of the few careers with no upper age limit!

Yes, the creative writing course I attended at the British Museum had an older clientele - not because it was held in the museum(!!), although I suppose older people might be more likely to have seen the museum leaflets in which the course was advertised.

Good luck with your current projects!

Sheila

The oldest person I know of on my MPhil was nearly eighty. And Mary Wesley is an example to us all! I really don't think the trade is bothered: youth is a selling point, but so is an unusual and interesting life, which youths don't usually have.

My distance learning was 8 weekend workshops and one week-long residency, in 2 years, plus open-ended phone/post/email supervisor time (each supervisor only has one student in each year, and some informal workshopping between students by email, and some poetry workshopping via the MPhil forum. Even the supervisors posted work on there for comment sometimes.

Emma

That sounds about right, so you'd have plenty of time to just get on with it and some feedback as you went along and an incentive to get things done. I took a sabbatical from teaching about 20 years ago, and wrote the first draft of a novel. My husband was top salesperson for BT West End and I had a horrible job. I was quite glad to go back,'though, because I missed the company. I don't think there were Creative Writing courses then.

Sheila